Very High ability dd(111 in SATS) been put in bottom set maths-action?

[Mumof3xbears]

Would love advice from any teachers, heads of maths or parents been in similar situation.

My dd has consistently been in the very top of her class often coming joint top with another student. Always working on higher level work and then going for extensions. In her SATS she was one of a small handful of children that achieved are+ in all areas.
Since starting secondary school she has worked hard and found the work easy and the internal assessments easy too. She says cats on computer where a bit weird but she’s generally a bright girl all round.
Anyway last week the year 7 were set and my dd was put in bottom set. She devastated and said kids she’s with were doing the lowest level work at primary and set 2 were the middle runners. Even some kids are shocked that are in top set as they said they were struggling previously. I hadn’t been worried as I thought she was a shoe in.
I’ve made an initial enquiry and they’ve come back and said she didn’t make top 60 on the assessment but I really struggle to see that happening but now my battle will be convincing them to check that it wasn’t a marking or data input error which is my gut feeling.
How can a child go from excelling and achieving above the expectated level in all areas to totally flunking and being put in bottom set. Just doesn’t make sense.

One battery of CATS tests are based around spatial awareness so youget given shapes and have to say how they are when unfolded etc. Dd finds this kind of thing incredible difficult and it can skew results. Her GCSE targets in maths and science were stupidly low due to this. (predicted 6's achieved 8's)

Our school has taken a very clear policy decision not to give predictions until Y9 when the GCSE course starts. I prefer that and think it's healthier for the students, but each to their own - it will depend on the individual headteacher

Goodbyestranger - Completely concur. Our school doesn't give predictions until Yr10, and they don't use grade 9 at all. Giving a grade prediction in Yr7 is nonsense. My DD was useless in Yr7, but has just got a scholarship to the 6th Form.

goodbyestrabger indeed! I think it highly unlikely that there were any more than a couple.

both schools set from the word go, with cat testing taking place before the end of year 6. I’m thankful that both take into account sats though, because ds has a clinical disparity between non verbal and verbal performance (ed psych) which could skew setting if cats taken alone.

The cat testing at dds school was used to differentiate to an extent between the sets not just in pure ability but also the pace at which kids worked. At least that’s what we were told. 8 sets from 1-8 but with a degree of overlap.

Rafals all eight of my DC went to a state school (albeit a selective one). I'm completely clear on targets v predictions (although I use the terms loosely because tbh I'm not interested in what the computer generated stuff says, only what the teacher assessment is). I know these grades are generated though and are key to tracking etc but I wasn't aware that so many schools dished out this fairly wobbly data to parents in Y7; I assumed lots of places used our more measured approach.

I often mix up predictions versus targets. Only now in GCSEs has dd been given professional prediction alongside her target. Before that, the 7/8/9 or 9 (In the case of ds) relates to a target or pathway rather than a prediction.

Difference between the schools in part because dd’s has always had a quite able intake, comp but in relatively expensive area whereas ds’s school has had a more mixed intake because less ‘desirable’, catchment of about 3 miles rather than just over one, and reputation taking decades to shift. The ethos at ds’s school seems much more aspirational - perhaps kids being the first in family to go to university, so offers lots of early visits from year 8 to universities, and all about challenge and broadening horizons - not so necessary at dd’s school, I suppose. Very happy with both schools but it is an eye opener in how different they can be in small and large ways.

Alexander I have a feeling my DC weren't set in Y7 but I do see that it matters more in a non selective than in a selective.

It’s worth checking
At Primary my very high achieveing dd was sent to extra phonics classes due to an admin error
Mistakes can be made

I'm not at all convinced by people telling the op not to question her high ability child being put in the bottom set of a comp when they then reveal that their own children attend super selectives or that they offered their own child £150 to move from the second set to the top set

I don't think it's much of a revelation, Nephrite, when I wrote in my initial post that my DC went to a selective! Also - I add this in because you infer that parents at superselectives have no cause to worry about their DCs' educational trajectory and are all laid back pussycats - very many parents in the selective sector are breathtakingly intense (lots are in fact very relaxed and then there's a middle ground). Like.... really intense. It never ceases to amaze me how many parents constantly pester the HT or HoD or Ho6 about literally everything and have wacky revision regimes for their DC, often with not brilliant results. There really is a lot to be said for leaving it to the professionals.

My DC's comp taught everyone in mixed ability classes in Year 7 (bar the few needing substantial additional support).

Very average, non leafy comp.
Am I now allowed to comment?

As there are only 3 sets, the "bottom" set will still include 33% of the ability range i.e. quite a broad mix.
All the DC will have come to the school having previously been taught year group maths for Year 6 i.e. the same basic starting point.
Being in the "wrong" set is only an issue if

• there is no movement between sets (which would be an issue regardless)
• the sets are not taught the same material - and at this stage in Year 7, it seems surprising if this is the case.

the sets are not taught the same material - and at this stage in Year 7, it seems surprising if this is the case.
OP has already said they are being taught different material. This is partly why she is concerned as if they don’t sort any error soon her DD would have missed out on what the top and middle set are learning.

Decades ago I was put into the wrong stream for what is the equivalent of year 8. It was very upsetting, seeing friends go into higher streams and getting the message I was not one of the clever ones. I could not understand it when I had always come top in maths tests. Within a few weeks it was obvious I was in the wrong stream, but could not be moved until the end of the year as it would have been upsetting for another child to be moved down so soon!

Hang on in there, do not get too disheartened and get CGP books for home. If she shows them what she can do, they will have no option but to put her into a higher set.

What is not clear is which set the OPs child is in. She mentioned the year group being split in half. If this means each half has a full distribution of ability then yes, her child is in the "bottom" set but if it is a top half and bottom half split by ability then her child is effectively in set 3 of 6 so really above the middle and possibly where she should be if the CAT test was something the child finds very hard. Until the OP answers that question, some of the points raised above are superfluous.

The year group is split in two (not by ability but by having an equal number of form groups in each half.) Each half has top, middle and bottom set. That's how i understand it. It's the same in my dc's school. Op hasn't said the two halves are higher and lower ability

I'd check like words said.
DS's school has now been streamed and not set. They have 5 classes in 2 bands. One band doesn't have a top set, it was explained they were streamed in ability so ...
Y1
Y2
X1
Y3
X2

Yes bottom of a year half.
She didn’t find either the cats or internal assessments hard (she said they were much easier than SATS). I think the cats are just strange which I think I remember thinking when I did them to be fair. The feedback I got didn’t suggest the cats result was poor either.
She has found class work very easy all term and that was pitched at mixed before setting. She also requested herself a year 7 work book. It’s an end of year 7 revision book which she’s working through easily and correctly.
I know the SATS aren’t everything but when she’s overall an extremely bright child it doesn’t fit with that or her track record. A 117 and 114 in her other SATS are fairly good. She almost always gets 100% in mental arithmetic, has read 3 substantial books since September and is achieving 100% in all her weekly Spanish classes and was awarded pupil of the half term for instance, along with a tutor parents evening where all the feedback was excellent from all subjects . I know kids have weaknesses but maths has never been hers, in fact the opposite.
I know there’s been a lot said about a 111 not being top in other schools but she knows kids that scored under the 110 in there. And mums that told me their kids struggle in maths in middle meanwhile she’s never struggled with the mastery work and then gone into extensions.
My gut tells me that it’s an admin error it happens lots in schools (so my teacher friends tell me). I wanted advice on the approach to get them to investigate further and avoid getting fobbed off basically.
If in the case she somehow had a total out of character day then it seems harsh to base sets on 1 assessment and I’d also want to see where she went wrong and of course the timings of reassessments.
I’ve had some great advice on here with a sense of encouragement to get it looked at as the picture doesn’t fit.
Just seems odd.
I’m not about to go in guns blazing which is why I sought help from those working in schools for best approach.
I’m not one of these my kids the best if the best types but I really don’t get this at all.

What I mean is there are 2 bottom sets on both halves. She us

“She is in one” typing and walking

I queried this because I remember a friend's daughter being put in the lower ability half of her year group based on her ability in English. so it is an approach used by some schools.

What was her CAT score

Maybe it is a mistake, I guess there's no harm in asking.

At dd's school apparently there are 6 classes for subjects and up until last week I did not understand how the system worked - dd told me. She said the year group is divided in two (L and R) depending on ability and there are three groups in each half. In Maths the groups are divided by ability (because the school have found that SATS results for Maths are quite good at predicting ability) whereas for English the groups are mixed because the schools says SATS results are less reliable (who knows why, maybe the spelling bit skews results?) Anyway dd says she is in the top set (when I asked how she knew she said Duh because of the code on her timetable cue another . She got 109 in her Maths SATS (without any extra work/booster sessions etc.) and she is with a friend who got 114. She says so far the stuff they're being taught is pretty easy and sometimes covers stuff they did in Y6. I think the school are still getting to grips with having kids from loads of different primaries and getting them all up to speed - we are only getting towards the end of the first half term of secondary so it is very early days.

Like Redsky says, providing the school are willing to move kids throughout the year between sets (presumably the teacher will notice if your dd is way ahead of her classmates) this shouldn't be a problem.

I would imagine she fouled up in the CATS and didn’t follow the instructions properly and also missed a double page on the written maths test!

I queried this because I remember a friend's daughter being put in the lower ability half of her year group based on her ability in English. so it is an approach used by some schools. DN had the reverse experience. Always excelled at English (got Level 9s in her GCSEs in both) but because her Maths was poor (scraped a Level 4 at GCSE and that with a tutor too) she was put in the 'bottom half' of the year group until her parents realised what was going on. She did very well in her GCSEs (better than DS!). so they felt they'd made the right choice to query where the school had positioned her.

I can understand you being upset.

I know nothing about CATS tests as my dd goes to a private school that doesn’t use them, but I do know that my dd doesn’t do well at all in verbal/non verbal reasoning type tests. But she is very bright and top set for maths and really excels at English. Some tests give skewed results...

If she's strong at maths it'll show in her work and they'll adjust the sets. She'll probably get a standard test at the end of this term and they'll decide then. It's a secondary school thing, they have so many children and don't know them as individuals so need to sort them somehow. Cats sorts by learning style/ability but it's not foolproof. Get a copy of the other book and let her work through it