Very High ability dd(111 in SATS) been put in bottom set maths-action?

[Mumof3xbears]

Would love advice from any teachers, heads of maths or parents been in similar situation.

My dd has consistently been in the very top of her class often coming joint top with another student. Always working on higher level work and then going for extensions. In her SATS she was one of a small handful of children that achieved are+ in all areas.
Since starting secondary school she has worked hard and found the work easy and the internal assessments easy too. She says cats on computer where a bit weird but she’s generally a bright girl all round.
Anyway last week the year 7 were set and my dd was put in bottom set. She devastated and said kids she’s with were doing the lowest level work at primary and set 2 were the middle runners. Even some kids are shocked that are in top set as they said they were struggling previously. I hadn’t been worried as I thought she was a shoe in.
I’ve made an initial enquiry and they’ve come back and said she didn’t make top 60 on the assessment but I really struggle to see that happening but now my battle will be convincing them to check that it wasn’t a marking or data input error which is my gut feeling.
How can a child go from excelling and achieving above the expectated level in all areas to totally flunking and being put in bottom set. Just doesn’t make sense.

This happened to a friend of mine.

Her dd said the head of maths hated her on sight. Then found she was put in the group with children who had SEN when she had been top of the top set.

School refused to move her. Insisted there was no mistake and she was struggling with maths even though she was getting 100% scores in her homework and school work.

Friend privately tutored her and entered her for her GCSE Maths privately.

She is now at uni studying Maths. A* in Maths A Level.

Setting using cats alone is flawed.
My son who is autistic was very anxious in CATS and his score was reportedly 124th out of 128 in the year for maths. They set him a very low target that he had already surpassed at primary. I rang up to check as had been told he was good at maths at school and found this cats score out. I told them it was wrong but got stuck for a while with "computer says no".
Anyway long story short he got an 8 at GCSE with no revision at all (not recommended, but autistic logic) and is taking it for A level.

The moral of this story is that CATS may be like an IQtest, but also like an IQ test scores can be significantly impacted by illness, anxiety, confusion, lack of concentration, or just a plain bad day.

How do you know what everyone else got in their SATs? Is that info published somewhere for your school? Our school don't give out that kind of info at all, apart from a general overview. I

People talk.

Will try and get the test papers. Meanwhile hope we can do extra stuff to keep up.
School published individual subject percentages so it’s easy to work out how many kids got what. And the data about how many children achieved Are+ in all areas again in percentages so easily worked out when you know how many tested.

Kids chatted about it too. My Dd did lots of extra work through choice as she loves it all and her friends were all saying they wished they had as they didn’t do so well.

She was finding the work easy when there was no set anyway and now been put in lower it’s so so easy and she’s told me the assessment was easier than SATS too so feels weird if she didn’t do well.

Hmphhh

I think you're right to say that the key thing is how fluid the sets are. If you dd is the only child able to answer questions in her set, the teacher will soon notice this and, in a decent school, would review her placement.

It is worth contacting the maths dept directly if possible. Firstly to feedback what dd says about the work being easy etc, but also to mention the effect it's having on her self-esteem.

If they reset again before Xmas, hopefully things will right themselves then.

But do focus only on your child's school history and ability, not that such and such's mum says that he struggles with maths and he's in a higher set as this will stop the school actually listening closely to your specific complaint.

Good luck!

**Oliversmumsarmy this is not good and I don’t want the same fate to happen, she genuinely is a high flyer and I’m not being biased as I know that might be what some are thinking. She doesn’t have any weaknesses except music she’s not keen and comes out as meeting expectations

Totally agree thehorseand his boy I have sent an email to her new teacher who is also 2nd in sept. It only talks about her and her history. She’s already standing out elsewhere in the school so I’m feeling confident in what I think. Just not confident of getting through to the school.
Her previous maths teachers response was just that data showed she didn’t perform well in assessment but as I said I’m doubtful of the accuracy as I know my Dd and her ability well. Looked at her workbook and it’s just ticks everywhere.

“2nd in dept” obviously, damn autocorrect.

I guess I’m a bit more worried as mums I know further up the school said the school don’t do moves. So there’s going to need to be proof and a battle sadly.

You need to ask the school for clarity in how often and on what basis they move between sets.

It would be HIGHLY unusual for schools to disallow any movement between sets - there's usually some shifting around either termly or half-termly.

Phone the school and ask to meet with head of maths or ask then to pass on an email. Give them a date that you expect to be contacted by and then contact the head of you don't get a response.

I think you are over reacting. You don't know the other kids ability (even though you think you do), you are just assuming your dd is better than everyone else. The intake is 180 and you mention that there are 3 sets in her half of the year which means there are about 6 sets in total. First of all she is not in the bottom set, she is in the third set. She could be in the right set, considering you don't know all the other kids scores. 111 is good, but it's not a "very high ability" and I can guarantee you that a lot of kids got a higher score than that. You seem to think your dd is better than everyone else and she clearly thinks that too, otherwise she wouldn't be crying because she is not in the top group. Oh and with a score of 111 the school will not expect her to get 8 or 9 like you think.

Ok a SATs score of 111 would put her in the top 15% nationally so it would be an unusual school which would legitimately have her in the bottom set (e.g. selective). In my school which is high attaining and much bigger than yours, she’d probably be top set in a year half.

If there are a slew of unusual placements, it’s possible that someone has bodged a sort on an excel spreadsheet somewhere. It should have set off alarms when comparing SAT scores to set placement when doing a common sense check.

I think flagging it up is perfectly reasonable, as to me, a maths teacher, it does sound odd. Even schools that churn out inflated SATs scores aren’t normally that off.

111 is 'above average' in SATs, but not 'very high'.

Looking at results from last year locally, it would have put her in the top half, but probably not in the top third, so wouldn't have put her in the top set of 3 - upper part of the middle set more likely.

For comparison, top 10% got 117+. Bearing in mind percentages for 8s and 9s, targets for GCSE won't be quite at that level either unless the school sets 'highly aspirational' targets.

Ah, sorry, I bow to Noble's wider knowledge of this one.

I am guilty of extrapolating from what was obviously a high-attaining cohort locally.

Fair enough. I mean generally high ability as 114 and 117 and greater depth in writing putting her up there. More my thing is she’s been doing higher work this whole time and nationally she would be around top 40 minimum and locally top 45 so I thought she would be in at least the top 60 not the bottom.
I’m not suggesting she’s better than everyone but that the lowest set is probably not quite right. Especially when she has several friends who got under 110 in everything that are in top set. That information I do know.
I’ll jyst have to go with my gut instinct and see what happens. But my main concern is 6 weeks at a new school and she’s gone from being challenged to it being easy to then it being even easier still.
I’m not here to get a bashing. I’m here because I very much care about my kids education.

Crikey Cant where are you that 117 is top 10%?! (Is that maths?)

I just looked at the table again, 111 is top 19% (I read the wrong row), but still the sort of kid you’d expect to get 7+ at GCSE.

table N2b

Thanks noblegiraffe I appreciate the % breakdown as it backs up my thinking that something’s off. Those numbers would put her in top 24 kids so not making top 60 just doesn’t sit well. Just hope they are willing to investigate further and not take the spreadsheet as verbatim.
Thanks for the advice everyone.
Just a very concerned mum here trying to do the best I can and what’s right for my kid.

Posted before I read your one about new table reading.
Thanks for helping

I've always taken the approach that going head to head with my DC's school is likely to do more harm than good. I've never intervened with stuff like this, but I don''t think it comes from not caring. Where mine weren't in the top set I didn't fuss about it at all, although I think my DC are pretty clever (although that ne be more in retrospect than at the time). That said, they all went to a selective school which makes a difference. But seriously, just leaving things be and raising queries in a mild way at parents' evening seems to me to be far more productive than fretty e-mails etc. Esp in Y7.

That should read may be, not ne be!

Why don't you just phone the school and say what you've told us?

I would expect them to have picked up by half term if she was in the wrong group and move her.

It's worth having a chat with school as something seems off to me.

111 wouldn't be a top set child at my school as our top sets tend to be scores of 115+ but it's certainly not low.
CATs scores are useful because what can happen at primary is lots of rote learning and cramming for the questions rather than a sign of a child's aptitude across a subject, but it also seems wrong to be using them solely to set.