Having nightmares over secondary school selection...

[Heidi243]

Question: has anyone ever refused point blank to send their child to a secondary school that there is no way in hell you'd let your child attend and basically said you'll keep them home until they get one of your preferred choices?

So, here they are... tbh I can only see our appeal reason as being the fact that we are atheists and both Hoe Valley and George Abbott have no religion attachment... all the others do... 🙄🤔

The school at the top is St Peter's Catholic School, but the name got cut off the top for some reason.

Any appeal you do should be about what the preferred school offers that better fits your child (I'm paraphrasing somewhat) so, for example GA or HV offer a wider range of languages at GCSE and your child already attends two language clubs, or your child has potential to be an excellent fencer (the sport not garden variety) and those schools have fencing specialists. I think the atheist/religious route is less likely to succeed (do all schools still do collective worship?) but experts may well have much better advice for you!
I do wish you luck, it appears that Guilford is a bit of a nightmare for secondary admissions and I can see how difficult it is to work out how best to order your preferences given the differences in admission criteria...

What is the admission criteria for the Catholic school?

Are Wallington and Nonsuch on your list, as a PP suggested? If so are you aware that entry is by the 11+ and the top scorers from applicants from miles around get places? I.e very hard to get into?

Anyway, they would be mad choices for you. 2x2 hour drives, 80miles a day in petrol and journeys like that with MS?

Also, a social life and friends nearby are crucial to teenagers.

They need independence. To be able to travel by bus to school.

Look at the tables on the DoE website: how is the progress at the ‘below average’ school for your Dd’s ability group?

My daughter is very bright (but then what parent doesn't say that?!) but to be honest she's more 'creative' than academic... she's also one of the best sprinters in her school and was out-running children two years above her when she had only just started at her middle school! Problem is, although I'm constantly being pestered by the athletics coach to get her to try out for the squad, she won't as she hates being 'looked at and competing in athletetics would mean eventually there would be spectators and she flatly refuses! 🙄😏... she's her daddy's daughter, he's quite shy too... not at all like me... I'm a real performer and have been all my life... from TV shows, editorial modelling to singing in a band... I love the spotlight, my daughter runs from it! I saw that St Peters supposedly encourages diversity with regards to religion... the fact that my child doesn't have a faith may actually work in our favour as she's not had it forced upon her from birth... I'm not (particularly) against religion in general, my belief is simply that its a big issue and not something anyone should enter into lightly... We therefore made the decision not to have her christened or whatever it may be called these days, as we believe it's a decision she should make when she's old enough to understand what she's signing up to... the Catholic School might quite like that as she's got no preconceptions and is 'teachable'. If they accept diversity, prove it!

Heidi, I think you need to get some advice from someone local who you can trust. I’ve just looked at the admissions criteria for St. Peter’s catholic school: there are 12 categories and your child, as an atheist, would come in category twelve (the lowest). You really haven’t got a hope of getting a place there and I’m surprised that isn’t obvious. Reading this thread through makes me think that perhaps you’re not familiar with the way that state school admissions work?

The way school admissions work, for state schools, it doesn’t matter if your child is “teachable”, it doesn’t matter if she has no preconceptions, the admissions criteria for each school set out in black-and-white the order in which children are offered places, so whether they like you or not, that won’t matter in the slightest. It’s all about the criteria.

I have not got any knowledge of this particular school, but I was able to google it and check the admissions criteria - which are published on its website - in a couple of minutes.

This is what you need to be doing, so that you can build a realistic view of where your child has a chance of getting a place. If you find this hard, then get some local advice, from your child’s primary school teacher or a friend who understands the system.

Looking at Christ's College data and Ofsted letter, able children seem to do well there - value add of 0 (range -0.4-0.4) which would be 'average' territory, provision for able pupils positively noted in Ofsted letter, languages particularly strong (especially for the more able group). 92% get Level 5 or above in English & Maths from this group.

Certainly the picture for able pupils is more positive than for other pupil groups within the school, and more positive than the 'overall' picture.

This document, from the Surrey county council website, shows how many children were admitted in each category, for every secondary school in the county, in 2018.

www.surreycc.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/158949/Secondary-allocation-figures-September-2018-V2.pdf

For St Peters, there were no children admitted in categories 10, 11 or 12. The county council website has the same data for 2017 and 2016 also.

Reading this thread through makes me think that perhaps you’re not familiar with the way that state school admissions work?

To be fair to the OP, the rhetoric of 'school choice' obscures how state school admissions works for many.

Parents are led to believe that they can choose a school for their child, and in p[articular that they can choose AGAINST a school that they don't want.

In actual fact, in probably the vast majority of cases, there is no, or very little, choice, or rather there is the choice of 1 'obvious' school (the nearest / the right one for the christian denomination / the catchment school) or perhaps further away, maybe rather poor, undersubscribed schools.

OP, what the admissions form actually tells to LA is 'if, by any chance, I qualify for more than 1 of the below schools, then this is my order of preference'. So for example, I live on the absolute edge of a catchment, so my form for DS effectively said 'I know DS has qualified for the grammar school, but actually, if there is space for him in the catchment comp, that's where we want him to go, as we have put that first'.

However, if you only put down schools on your form that you have zero chance of getting your child into (and a few minutes on Google will tell you that), then the council has no idea what your 'least worst' realistic choice is, and they will simply give you the space that everyone else has left. It is a computerised process. There is no human judgement or preference or 'ooh, I like the sound of him' involved - the computer applies the oversubscription criteria dispassionately, and churns out an answer.

I feel the OP is viewing this as a bit like a CV or a private school application form - that if she makes her child sound as interesting as possible to the school then they will 'choose her' after some close and personal scrutiny.

In actual fact, the computer will take in address, current school and a few other key details, run a computer programme against it, and then say 'yes' or 'no' for each school. If more than one 'yes', the top preference place is given. If no place, form put to bottom of pile until all others processed, then given the closest fitting leftover place. That's it. No personal touch, no 'we fancy some non catholics this year', no 'she likes drama', just 'address outside admissions area / no baptism / not attending feeder school: no'.

Cantkeepaway’s comments on Christ’s are worth noting.

My kids go to a S London comp where some kids, out of school, are involved in drugs, gangs, carry knives. It doesn’t affect my kids, they are not involved. The ordinary hard working kids in all ability groups do really well (though it is s high rated school). My eldest is off to Cambridge if predicted grades come through.

Don’t be a snob: learn to decipher the small print.

Genuine question - are there middle schools in Guildford? Because this really does read like someone who is encountering state applications for first time (not an old hand who has done it twice already), so I am wondering if she is seeking a place at the end of prep (possibly year 9 not year 7).

If that is the case OP, it's not like private school admissions without exams, it's wholly different - a computerised system which spits out the highest of your preferences (if you qualify for one or more than one) or gives you nearest school with vacancy.

If you really want to swerve a school, do not list it as a preference, and add in the free text box that under no circumstances do you want school X, and you understand that this may mean one even further away if you do not qualify for any of your preferences. I don't know if they have to comply with a request like that, but you may as well ask.

OP, now I know roughly where you live, I can't see any way you won't be allocated either to Christ's or Kings. Realistically, you need to decide which you would prefer so that at least you have those two in your preferred order. There is definitely movement on the waiting lists so the last distances are those on offer day - the actual distances will be a bit further than that. We live closer to Woking than you do : quite a few of our friends' children were initially allocated to Kings but most ended up getting into Winston by September.

I wouldn't waste an application on St Peter's or SJB as you'll be so far down the admissions criteria that you'll have no chance.

If I were you, I'd rank GA/GCS as you want them, then use 3-5 as other schools (HVS and anywhere else without a faith category if you would prefer them to the other two Guildford schools)) then 6 as your fallback preference of the other two Guildford schools.

In reality, that's likely to mean you are allocated to Christ's and you'll need to put yourself on the waiting list for the others. You may end up starting at Christ's and you may actually decide you like it - or you may wait for a space at one of the others which is more likely to be GA as it's bigger. We know people who have moved from other schools at Y8.

I genuinely think in your position OP (and I am in Guildford and will be in a simiar position in a few years time) I would list Christ’s as your 6th choice. That way if you don’t get your top 5 which is unfortunately highly likely to be the case given the way the admissions work, then you would presumably stand a good chance of getting Christ’s instead of Kings which I think would be the preferred outcome.
You could then look at appealing for GA and County and indeed Hoe Valley or other Woking schools if you wanted and with luck you might win an appeal.
As others have said, there really is very little choice and if moving house isn’t an option then I think you need to be pragmatic and list Christ’s as otherwise you will end up with an undersubscribed school somewhere else in Surrey which may be far worse than Christ’s...

So this thread can basically be summarised as

• my DC only stands a realistic chance of getting into 2 schools
• I don't like either of them
• if DC gets allocated one of these schools I will appeal for another school(s)
• if appeal is unsuccessful the world ends

My suggestions

• look around the schools with an open mind and ask pertinent questions. Do not base your choice on statistics, Ofsted reports or hearsay!
• if you genuinely won't send your DC to either of these schools then you need a plan B which has to be home educate, move house or go private.

You need to decide if any of the Plan B options are more palatable than sending your DC to one of the "non preferred" schools.

dd in the free text box that under no circumstances do you want school X, and you understand that this may mean one even further away if you do not qualify for any of your preferences.

As far as i know, you cannot do that - or rather, no notice will be taken of any such request. You will be treated as anyone who qualifies for none of their preferences, and will be allocated wherever there are spaces, once everyone else has been sorted.

The only thing you can do if allocated a place you don't want is to turn it down - but then YOU have the responsibility of finding an alternative place, as the LA has fulfilled their duty by allocating the original one. They won't proactively look for vacancies for you elsewhere.

Getting back to the original question, clearly you can legally keep your child at home until you get your preferred choice. But you have to educate them for as long as it takes to get an offer at your preferred school. Which might be never.

Are you genuinely confident you can provide a better education than either of the two schools you are rejecting out of hand? Right through to GCSE stage if necessary? At Christ's College, a quarter of the 2016 GCSE students got good GCSEs in all the EBacc subjects. Are you confident you can provide the resources your child will need to cover that curriculum to the right standard.

If so, great. Keep them at home. Assuming they are happy to stay at home.

But otherwise, you would be far better to accept a place at one of those schools, rather than no school place at all. You can then use your time and energy to provide the kind of home environment (including extra tuition if necessary) that will make sure they still succeed. And with a parent who is as invested in their education as you appear to be, they have every chance of succeeding.

It's always worth remembering that "parental choice" never appears in any government document. The term used is, and always has been, "parental preference".

All great responses and suggestions guys... again, I think I've confused some of you when I say middle school... I mean junior school... sorry I'm 44 and when I was at school you went to first school, middle school, senior school and 6th form 🙄😏🤗... thank you for the allocations attachment, that's exactly what is been trying to find! I'm lot clearer now on how to play the game... I guess when all is said and done, what will be will be. 😏😊 x

One point I should make now, Heidi- whatever school the LA offer you ACCEPT it! If you decline the place, the LA are under no obligation whatsoever to provide another place because you are the one that turned down their offer.
Thousands don't seem to grasp this.
On offer day, accept the place, then get on the waiting lists for schools you do want (you can be on as many waiting lists as you like!). Prepare your appeal, submit within the timescale.

"At Christ's College, a quarter of the 2016 GCSE students got good GCSEs in all the EBacc subjects"

This implies that bright and hard working children do fulfil their potential at the school, but the overall statistic is brought down by the rest of the cohort who have a lower ability and make less good progress. Possibly because they have less support at home. If your Dd is bright,she will be in top sets with the EBacc achieving children.

To win an appeal you have to demonstrate some particular subject or provision that is available at the desired school but not at the other, and which is important to your child's education in some way.

So: you say your Dd is good at sprinting. If the desired school has an athletics track, an athletics team and extra-curricular club, your Dd takes part in competitive athletics in and out of school, then the lack of a tack and athletics at the allocated school would give good grounds for appeal. The fact that your Dd doesn't want to be part of the team will count against this.

Other appeal grounds could concern a language that she studies and wants to continue, music, drama or dance for example. The fact that you prefer the school and it is between academically (or in your opinion, socially) will not count. The appeal panel cannot declare on the quality of provision, the LA case being that all state schools offer an adequate education.

You need to think about this when you have 'appeal' as your back up plan!