Having nightmares over secondary school selection...

[Heidi243]

Question: has anyone ever refused point blank to send their child to a secondary school that there is no way in hell you'd let your child attend and basically said you'll keep them home until they get one of your preferred choices?

Thank you LouiseH... I really appreciate your thoughts... 😊

Seriously though guys... I think I'm done here now... I really appreciate everyone's feedback, ideas and suggestions... you've all been really helpful and I think I now have my 6 schools. Now all I need to do is go and check them all out before deciding in what order I'll put them in on the admissions form when the time comes. Thanks again peeps! H xxx 😊😊😊

I went to Wallington Girls and we used to pop over to each others' houses or meet for shopping/cinema etc. We walked or got public transport. Didn't have our mum trailing after us as teenagers. Might be worth checking the public transport situation for your dd to have a friend over, or go to theirs

Op I know you said you are done here but I want to be clear you understand...even if you put six schools down, the LA might offer you a place somewhere else.

They are not obliged to offer you any of your choices. If there is no space at them, you will be offered a school no one else wants.

If I were you I would go and look round the local schools (=most likely to get) and see if there is one that's not so bad. Put that one sixth - you will only get that if there is no space at your top five. At least then it will be local with local friends! :)

Clary...If I put the two schools that I don't want anywhere in the six, then I'd get it anyway and the LA would just say... 'well at least you got one of your preferences... it was your sixth choice...' so it looks like I can't really win either way... as you've said, if I don't put it on the list they're still likely to lumber us with it... damned if I do, damned if I don't... ultimately, it looks like we'll just have to play the game and be prepared for a fight when the inevitable happens.

You'll only get preference six if there is no space at any preferred school. Just if you don't put any local school down, you risk being sent to a poor school miles away. I'd rather have the local poor one tbh.

The LA will not somehow work harder to get you your best school if you haven't got any on your list, than if you've got one low down on your list. This is because the system is deliberately blind to where you put schools on your list.

Also, you won't have a stronger case at appeal if you've not got any of your preferences, than if you've got your fifth or sixth choice, either.

Whether the school you get offered first was on your list or not is entirely irrelevant to whether or not you later get a place somewhere else via a waiting list or appeal. No one is going to be saying "but hang on, you can't complain if you've got one of your preferences", as you seem to think. It doesn't work like that.

If you don't put a local school that you've got a chance of getting into on your list somewhere, then you must be 100% ready to home educate, as otherwise you may find the only school you're offered is just as bad as the local one but miles away.

You do realise it's done by computer don't you? There's no team of people weighing up forms and saying well this person is obviously really keen so we'll allocate x rather than y....

Seriously though visit the two over-my-dead-body schools. Home schooling up to GCSE is going to be no fun for your dd, neither is going to a school a long way away and not being able to see friends outside school.

At least one of those schools will be fine I promise.

Heidi,

Just be careful.

There has been a school that 'everyone gets into because no-one chooses it' school locally for years.

Several people did exactly as you are planning to - didn't put it down on their lists because 'we'll be given it anyway, it's not worth wasting a preference.' Except that it has been quietly improving, and canny people HAD been putting it on their lists - maybe not first, but as third, fourth, fifth - the 'better than the alternatives' insurance option.

So instead of getting the school they thought they would get, they were allocated a school not only much worse, but also 45 minutes' travel away.

Unless you can think of no school within an hour's travel that would be worse than either of the schools you would prefer to avoid, put the one you dislike least (after a visit) as your last option.

the LA would just say... 'well at least you got one of your preferences... it was your sixth choice...'

I cannot reiterate strongly enough that IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.

The LA - or whoever hears your appeal - accepts that everyone would prefer their first choice to their last choice. They know - and in fact advise - that sensible people put fallback 'least worst' options on their form. So there is no prejudice whatever if you appeal for your first choice having been given your sixth choice - in fact, they will hear people appeal for their first choice having been given their second choice all the time.

What putting a 'definite', l;east worst school down as a final choice does is give you power and more control - it says 'if I cannot have my genuinely preferred schools, of the ones that I can be given a place at according to the rigorously applied selection criteria, then this is the one I would least dislike'.

If you don't do this, you lost all control - you will find yourself allocated a place in whatever school can accommodate you after everyone else has been given their best, intermediate, or least worst choices. And that might well be at an even worse school than you currently think is the worst case scenario,

Again, thanks guys... I do have 6 schools now and even my bottom two are only in towns either side of us so no more than between 5 and 8 miles away. I'm sure it'll all co.e out in the wash so to speak... I guess we'll just have to wait and see... there's still a little while to go yet before we have to submit our final decision, so we'll be checking our 6 out, plus the 2 we don't want... just to be sure... X

Heidi - the others are speaking lots of sense - have you had a look at based on the last few years of admissions whether you'd get a place at your 5th and 6th schools? I know that admissions are not always predictable but you need a "banker" in your six - otherwise your allocation may be completely left field to you - a school you don't like and one that is a long way away...

Before you make a final decision, have a look carefully at the allocations for both this year and 2016. Lots of schools were full and that includes Christ’s College, some have permanently increased their PAN but others will drop back, so if you prefer Christ’s to Kings if it is not in your 6 choices then you may not be allocated it especially if you are in a high birth year. It looks like there is a shortage of secondary places across Surrey so you need to be realistic - very few schools admitted 5 to 8 miles away.

even my bottom two are only in towns either side of us so no more than between 5 and 8 miles away

Again, that's not how it works. What was the furthest admitted distance last year for these schools? If it is e.g. 3.5 miles, you won't get into either, however willing you are to drive.

The only point i was trying to make earlier about distance was that, locally, people were caught out when the local 'never been full' school was full (it's now well oversubscribed every year).

Those who thought 'No need to put X, I'll get t anyway' came face to face with the council allocating them, instead, to the nearest school with places, 45 minutes' journey away and far, far worse than the one they didn't put on their list.

So what matters about distance is not 'there are some nice schools in the next town which we will not get a place in because i live 4 miles outside their last admitted distance for the past 3 years' BUT 'is there a single school, however awful, however obscure, within an hour's travelling time that I would like LESS than the ones I would prefer to avoid but are local?' If the answer to the question is 'yes, there's a truly terrible one 15 miles away', then you NEED to put the local school on your form, in last place.

Are the schools five and eight miles away undersubscribed? Their admissions will also be on distance...
Also, if you are allocated a school eight miles away, is it doable by public transport? Because my friend has MS, and when she's well, all is fine, but when she's ill, she cannot do anything, let alone an eight mile school run four times a day.

Okay, so I spoke to a guy at the council this morning regarding all of this and basically had confirmed exactly what I first thought... he told me that there simply aren't nearly enough schools in and around the Guildford area (tell me something I don't know 🙄), since there's also areas like Clandon, Ripley, Jacobs Well, etc. to take into account... Therefore, put whatever school you like, in Outer Mongolia if you really want, and it still won't make a jot of difference. School places in this area are pretty much allocated based on whichever is your closest - end of! Then, if oversubscribed, which of course most are, it's then on to your next nearest and so on. Basically, the government say that parents have a choice but the reality for the councils is that you don't... it just isn't a realistic idea, plain and simple! So there you go... I got it from 'the powers that be'... and he has basically confirmed exactly what I thought in the very beginning! Looks like we'll be going to appeal at the end of the day then... 🙄🤗😏

"School places in this area are pretty much allocated based on whichever is your closest - end of!"

Did you think it was different? Surely you would have gathered that from the admissions criteria?

So is George Abbot your nearest school?

If it is, then at 2 miles, you should get in.

If it isn't, you almost certainly won't get a place looking at the previous years allocation.

You express a preference; you do not have a choice, calling it a choice only causes problems!

Of course I didn't think it was different... it's exactly what I thought from the start, but believed that I stood a reasonable chance of getting a school we actually wanted if it was within a 5 mile radius... I didn't think that was unreasonable to request... and no, George Abbott isn't our nearest, it would be between the two schools we don't want... Christ's and King's... so, like I said... it'll be down to us fighting for what want.

You need to look at previous years allocation distances to make a judgment combined with the schools admissions policies. Irrespective of whatever the man at the council says these are the things to check.

Having looked at the stats for the last few years only in 2016 did GA go to category 6 - your category. And even then the last admitted distance was about 1.3 miles so closer than your 2 miles. The other years did look to have high sibling intake so there is always an outside chance that your application may come in a year with low sibling category but being in category 6 is your problem. I think because some schools but not all are using "nearest school" it looks like it can cause geographical oddities... as Christ's doesn't use it but has a "anyone else" category - that goes out to distance so in some years you wouldn't get Christ's either (or it would have been tight).

I don't think you've yet said whether you've actually looked around the two nearby schools that you are trying to avoid. I also know parents at Christs who are very happy with it.

We aren't in Guildford, but we are in Surrey. My daughters attend another Surrey school which is located on a Council estate with a very socially mixed intake. Some might describe it as a bit rough and people look down on it. Nevertheless, both my daughters are happy and thriving, pastoral care is excellent and they have a lovely group of friends. Furthermore, the school supports able students very well, they achieve good places at Russell Group and Oxbridge universities every year and my eldest is targetting top grades in all her GCSEs when she sits them this month, and very likely to nail them.

If you have visited the schools and ruled them out for good reasons, fine. But it sounds a bit like you are listening to hearsay. Driving for hours every day to avoid a school that has a bad reputation is nuts, unless you actually have evidence that the reputation is deserved.

I think further up post you said that you were in a feeder for Christ’s. However what several of us are saying is that if you don’t put them down as a preference you won’t get it as it has been oversubscribed in the past few years from people who have put it as a preference. You won’t be allocated it even if it is your closest school if you don’t put it down as a preference. It looks like it has quietly been improving and has maintained a good Ofsted, so go round it with an open mind as i may work out as a good banker. If you don’t put Christ’s down as an option you are likely to be allocated Kings International instead which has bounced in and out of special measures for years, or if it is a high birth rate year and other people put it is a banker, who knows where you may end up.

It would be worth finding out the appeal stats for George Abbot, County and other schools you may be interested in, as it will give you a bit of an idea of how many appeals are successful. If there were 30 appeals in the past few years and no successes, then you know it is a long shot, however if there were 20 appeals and say 8 or more were successful then you know if you put a good case together you are more likely to suceed.
If you are that worried about school places and can’t afford to go private, then it may be worth considering a move out of Guildford. Down the A3 and A31 in East Hampshire, the schools are fab and you’ll get more house for your money as well.

Moving house isn't an option... my other half has lived in Guildford all his life and won't move away. For me, home is wherever we are... but he's just not on board with the idea of moving. So, we're stuck with what we've got with regards to schooling... I'm even planning to go take a look at St Peter's Catholic School... but we're atheists so I'm pretty sure we'd really have to work to get her in there, and unlike my other hall's brother and girlfriend, I'm not going down the bullshit route of having her christened into the faith just to get her a place... never gonna happen!