Maths teachers should be paid more than PE teachers

[noblegiraffe]

Maths teachers should be paid more than PE teachers because there is a critical shortage of maths teachers and we have plenty of PE teachers.

What would people think of this? It was a topic that came up on the teacher polling app Teacher Tapp a while back, with mixed opinions.

I’m not saying that maths teachers are more important than PE teachers, or have a more difficult job (I’d rather teach bottom set Y9 than supervise rugby in the winter). But as a retention tool? Some say that it’s already happening with teachers of shortage subjects more likely to be waved up the pay scale, or hired on a higher point or given a meaningless TLR, but it’s all ad-hoc.

The DfE throw money at people to train in shortage subjects, but then there’s no extra money to retain them. Although in maths next year maths students will be getting a retention bonus after 3 and 5 years, the initial bursary has dropped significantly and NQTs could well still be starting on M1, and there is nothing for teachers already in the system.

What do people think? (Obviously I say maths because I’m a maths teacher, but the same argument would go for other serious shortage subjects). Should market forces determine subject pay scales?

Are you suggesting that when situations are bad employers can ignore, policies, contracts, negotiated settlements, national agreements etc?

They’ve been able to do that for 5 years. One of Michael Gove’s legacies. Heads are perfectly within their rights to increase pay to help with recruitment/retention.

quite honestly i think the vast majority of PE teachers should be taken out , put up against the wall, and shot.

Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if these points have been made already. I think a "golden hello" for shortage subjects is reasonable, and I would go so far as to say their student loans should be paid off (though gradually, and only if they stay teaching in state schools). This would encourage anyone wavering between teaching a shortage subject or a non-shortage subject to make the 'right' choice if they're in a position to choose. But otherwise I would keep maths and PE teachers on the same scales for all the obvious reasons.

Of course the other way teachers of shortage subjects can be given an advantage is further down the line when they might want to consider part-time working. I'm a school governor and 3 of the roles we advertised as full time for September have now been filled by applicants who requested part-time instead. In fact we are now advertising for a part-time maths teacher, to make up the FTE of the one we've already recruited! In contrast, I think we'd be much less likely to ever recruit a part-time PE teacher because whenever we advertise PE roles we get plenty of applicants willing to work full time.

teachers of shortage subjects can be given an advantage

This is an odd way of describing part time working? You only get part time wages and often have to deal with crap like not being allowed to apply for promotion, be left out of the loop, be treated like a second class teacher and possibly have to put up with a crap timetable.

I think that the government should pay the student loan repayments for each year that you are teaching in a state school. It is 9% of salary and would be a good incentive for retention. Too many new teachers leave the profession within first 5 years or go to teach abroad to get larger salaries.

They’re trialling loan repayments for MFL trainees from next year I think.

And the same for Doctors, nurses etc, anyone working in front line professional public services should have their loans paid- not just be exempt from repayment but have them paid.

Yes I agree. They should have theirbloans repaid but it should be on a sliding scale linked to length of service in the public sector.

This is an odd way of describing part time working? You only get part time wages and often have to deal with crap like not being allowed to apply for promotion, be left out of the loop, be treated like a second class teacher and possibly have to put up with a crap timetable

I think many thousands of part-time workers would disagree with you there noble, including me. For those who want to work part time, the opportunity to do so is something that is very much appreciated, and the lack of part-time teaching opportunities has been very much in the news recently. It is one of the contributing factors to poor teacher retention.

For me, working part-time (in a senior analytical role at a university) is what enables me to be a school governor, as well as fulfilling other volunteering roles. I get much greater satisfaction from that than I would from being paid a full-time wage and being offered promotions to more senior (managerial) positions that I don't really want.

But you’re not a part time teacher, Yagotta.

And a lot of part time teachers go part time so that they can do their marking on their day off, because the full-time job isn’t doable any more.

a lot of part time teachers go part time so that they can do their marking on their day off, because the full-time job isn’t doable any more

You believe too many headlines generated by teaching union conference speeches.

The teachers who are going part-time at our school are going part-time because they are either returning from maternity leave, or returning to teaching after a more extended break to raise a family and still have young children. In one case the applicant was refused permission from her current school (an independent) to go part-time.

If they later want to go full time, then I'm sure the school will be very happy to accommodate that, but in the meantime they will be treated with as much respect as any other teacher, and given that they are all very experienced teachers from very-hard-to-recruit subjects the school is likely to bend over backwards to keep them happy.

be treated like a second class teacher
If anyone treated me as a second-class employee it would be against my employer's equality policy. I hope you don't treat part-time teachers at your school as second class!

I hope you don't treat part-time teachers at your school as second class!

What do you think my role is?

I'm doing my PGCE in September. I'm really seriously considering trying to go into teaching in independent schools right from NQT.

A loan repayment scheme wouldn't change that. It's not 9% of salary. It's 9% of anything above £25,000. Given that M1 is £22,000ish, it doesn't mean that much.

What would make me apply to the state sector? I'm not in it for the money, that's for sure. I'd take the £22k if I thought I wouldn't be under so much stress with workload.

As it stands at the moment, if I teach in a state school it'll be on a term by term basis with an eye on my mental health.

What do you think my role is?

You're a maths teacher, head of department iirc, yes?

When I did my PGCE my uni wouldn't place anyone in private schools and my tutor didn't write references to them. It was fully expected you were training to enter the state system. No fees or loans in those days...

No, Yagotta, I’m a part time maths teacher. I’ve been part time for about 8 years and I’m talking from my experience.

I’m not HOD. I’m not anything. I’m not allowed to be anything because part timers aren’t allowed to apply for TLRs at my school.

What would make me apply to the state sector? I'm not in it for the money, that's for sure. I'd take the £22k if I thought I wouldn't be under so much stress with workload

Don't kid yourself that there will be less stress in the independent sector. Teachers there can expected to answer emails from parents 24-7, run multiple out-of-school clubs, and of course deliver fantastic results, so that parents get a demonstrable return on their "investment". They also don't necessarily get paid much more (though presumably they have more freedom to pay teachers in hard-to-recruit subjects more). You will also find it hard to move into the state sector if you change your mind later - some of our worst ever teaching candidates have been from independent schools. I remember one (a PE teacher) who literally sat there and said she'd never really had to deal with discipline issues because there were always 3 teachers to a class of 30, and the lead teacher was very strict so she normally did the 'bad cop' disciplining while the other 2 teachers rolled their eyes at each other about how she was handling the situation.

I’ve been part time for about 8 years

Well I guess that explains why you've got so much time for mumsnetting

I'm sorry you feel you're treated as second-class. Maybe you should move schools. I know where there's a part-time job being advertised.

you feel you're treated as second-class

It’s not just a feeling. So excuse me when I scoff at you saying going part time is an ‘advantage’. I’m part time because it’s a necessity.

Btw I’m also currently working through a maths A-level paper if you think I’m lazing around all day!

It's not just noble and I do find school governors often think they really know how things work in schools and how their staff feel, stating that their staff are 'happy' : to be honest, you don't hear the staffroom ranting. I say this because I am both a teacher and a governor and sometimes non teaching governors say things that make me remembers I have governors meeting tonight at which I plan to challenge lesson grading

Part time teachers in my school (or at least department) are shat on from a great height. They made the choice to be part time , true :and actually the ones I work with tend not to mark on their day off because they are with their young children, but I know the older part timers do. But their timetables are awful and they are thoroughly sidelined. To be fair to our school, we do have a part time SLT member.

ps noble there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be lazing about!

The part-time teachers I know (socially) are happy with their work-life balance.

The SLT at the school where I govern work stupidly long hours, and part time staff make an already difficult timetabling job even more difficult. They would prefer not to have them, but it's that or nothing in some subjects.

I don't think governors are generally naive about how hard teachers work or what a difficult job it is.

But their timetables are awful and they are thoroughly sidelined.

Yep. Anyone talking to me socially would hear that I’m happy with my work life balance, could never go back full time etc. That doesn’t mean I’m happy with the rest of it.

And I am about these governors who come on here banging on about what teachers think. I’ve never been professionally polled on my experiences of being part time. In fact I’ve never talked to a governor!

part time staff make an already difficult timetabling job even more difficult. They would prefer not to have them

I’m sure that sense of how they are valued as staff just shines through.