Maths teachers should be paid more than PE teachers

[noblegiraffe]

Maths teachers should be paid more than PE teachers because there is a critical shortage of maths teachers and we have plenty of PE teachers.

What would people think of this? It was a topic that came up on the teacher polling app Teacher Tapp a while back, with mixed opinions.

I’m not saying that maths teachers are more important than PE teachers, or have a more difficult job (I’d rather teach bottom set Y9 than supervise rugby in the winter). But as a retention tool? Some say that it’s already happening with teachers of shortage subjects more likely to be waved up the pay scale, or hired on a higher point or given a meaningless TLR, but it’s all ad-hoc.

The DfE throw money at people to train in shortage subjects, but then there’s no extra money to retain them. Although in maths next year maths students will be getting a retention bonus after 3 and 5 years, the initial bursary has dropped significantly and NQTs could well still be starting on M1, and there is nothing for teachers already in the system.

What do people think? (Obviously I say maths because I’m a maths teacher, but the same argument would go for other serious shortage subjects). Should market forces determine subject pay scales?

@noblegiraffe I am aware p, I am using a technique called irony. Ask your English teacher colleagues.

Bloody hell walkingdead are you being serious? The behaviour management issues in PE, the cultural disaffection for exercise amongst many youngsters, the truants, the ones without kit, the smelly changing rooms, the fixtures that can go on until 6pm in the winter in the cold ? The fact that you are often made to teach PSE, maths, geography . whatever to fill in a timetable? The macho posturing of some sporty students? the fact that they take it at GCSE and whinge about 'all the science' or going anywhere near a classroom? The fact that you are meant to be able to teach all sports known to mankind at any given moment, including dance?

I agree about the marking and think PE teachers are often over promoted because of their loud voices and easy manner with others. But I wouldn't want their job.

Whatever technique you’re trying to use, Mousse, it might help more if you just formed a coherent point.

I think there are lots of reasons.

Firstly the sheer numbers. Schools need more maths & English teachers than PE teachers. In my son’s school there are 10 sets per year group with the entire year split into two for timetabling. So there are 5 maths lessons occurring at the same time in Year 9 alone.

For PE there are only two groups taught at the same time. Then of course everyone has to take maths & English to GCSE with multiple lessons per week whereas PE is optional apart from one core lesson per week.

Then routes into teaching can be more flexible. I would guess most maths teachers are “traditionally academic types” who chose to do Maths A Level. They are more likely to be people who did well at school & took a traditional academic route.

My son’s PE/form tutor did OK, MT brilliantly at school. Passed the minimum & left school at 16 to go into the football Academy system where he was encouraged to re-take some core GCSE’s. He sustained an injury so the club supported him into a non traditional route (Btec sport followed by university BEd.). I think it would be harder for potential maths teachers to follow such a route. There will be some (I know a chemistry teacher who left school at 16 then decided to do an open university degree in her early 30’s) but not as many I’d have thought.

Economics: supply and demand. If a thing’s in demand but there’s a short supply you pay more for it.

There's the answer Cherrypi lets stop promoting maths teachers to Deputy Head and beyond and keep them all in the class instead to teach full time.

PE teachers used to have a second subject they taught. Often it was Maths and the ones I knew who did it, did it really well.
Perhaps those times have gone and it makes me rather sad. Happily I have retired from secondary teaching.

Why do you do it , for example, noble?

It’s not for the big bucks, that’s for sure but I’m on UPS so pay is reasonable anyway. I’m still in teaching because I like it and I’m part time and experienced so the workload is manageable. But that doesn’t apply to new or recent entrants, does it? They’re faced with relatively crap pay and excessive workload.

My points:

Market forces don't work well in the public sector - see NHS and housing to prove that point.

Maths teachers could be replaced if market forces were applied.

It is far more important we work together and support each other rather than seeking to divide and therefore be conquered.

Once we allow markets into schools we are all screwed - discuss with your history/sociology colleagues.

If you genuinely couldn't see through the irony to the actual points I was making then we need to pay maths teachers less rather than more. Ffs.

Bashstreetmum, my head, and one of the deputies are PE trained.

I long for a maths trained head, believe me. They might stop and think about the diatribe they are spouting on pupil data...

Thank you for the perspective on PE Piggywaspushed, I did say my view was only from the outside.

Yes, but why did you become a teacher and hang around long enough to get to UPS? You can't be unique! although the fact that you appear to be interested in education makes you different from any maths teacher I know in RL

I saw a school advertising additional ppa time for staff. I thought that was an interesting idea instead of more money. Still not getting me to return to maths teaching though. Also everyone hates maths and tells you so. Kids, parents, other teachers.

Oh yeah and how about this for a confusing point:

Market forces - or educating well rounded civilised individuals?

I want to educate well rounded people, not grub around with my nose in the trough. You?

@Cherrypi perhaps everyone hates maths teachers because some of them start divisive threads like this?

Fireplace the problems start from about age 7/8. In a competitive world children need specialist expert teaching early on. What made private worth it? From age 8 the dc got specialist maths, science, french, english, history, geography and ancient history/latin/classics.

The whole system needs to step up. Mine didn't get Oxford and Cambridge because they were cleverer. They got it because they were bright and well educated by teachers not expected to be jacks or jills of all trades or social workers and who were able to maintain the respect of patents and pupils.

Humanities teachers are the ones hoovering up promotions, look at how disproportionately represented they are!

To be fair, I haven't stumbled across many PE teachers on MN.

Teaching always made me a bit . I cant imagine any other career where a trainee gets paid MORE then they will once qualified (bursary for maths is 25k yet starting wage is £22917). I'd get more in a call centre

Maybe the shortage is more to do with less crossover between the skills you need for maths and the skills you need to teach?
A PE type will likely be used to teamwork, an English graduate used to communicating ideas - both needed to teach.
Maybe less maths grads are capable of taking charge of 30 fourteen year olds?
I think a Maths Secondary teaching degree would be good, rather than focusing on people who do a trad maths degree

Can't read that table : too small. It certainly used to be the case that geography = SLT. I think the issue now though is that to retain STEM ers, they are (sometimes over)promoted.

I think heads also promote people like them . My head is a physicist. All three deputies are physicist. Two further AHs are physics/ chem. I went to an interview where the head was a English specialist and her SLT did have rather a lot of English specialists.

Managed to read the table. Unless I am being dim , is science not, in fact, miles ahead?

but why did you become a teacher and hang around long enough to get to UPS?

Because my previous job was boring and troubled me ethically. Also, at the time pay was reasonable, the pension was fab and I like maths. I had zero experience of working with young people and no real idea what I was getting into. I stuck around because it’s not boring and I like the kids.

Oops, just realised I missed off an AH in my headcount. Head of science. Physicist.

I wonder also if it's the excitement of finding people willing to do the timetable. Which most arts type teachers would run a mile from.

Well, there we are noble that's who we need to attract. People with ethics, who love their subject and are capable of working with young people.