Zero Tolerance, No Excuses...what should happen to pupils who can’t behave?

[noblegiraffe]

There are an increasing number of schools across the country adopting ‘No Excuses’ behaviour policies where the slightest misdemeanour is cracked down on and punished. Children are removed from the classroom and isolated if they break the rules. The level of expulsions is creeping up.

A tribunal has just criticised a school for putting its zero tolerance behaviour policy above the education of a child with special needs.
The student has ADHD and epilepsy, the behaviour policy was applied rigidly and the school now has to issue a letter of apology to the student for its failure to make reasonable adjustments.

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/academy-put-zero-tolerance-policy-above-pupils-education-tribunal

Do you think that schools should be allowed to have zero tolerance?

noblegiraffe I wouldnt think the less of you if you did, I would recognise that I was being obstructive, patronising and dismissive (quite possibly wilfully).

But then I work in a hairy arsed industry where I cant afford to have an attack of the vapours because somebody has used naughty words.

But then I work in a hairy arsed industry where I cant afford to have an attack of the vapours because somebody has used naughty words

That's not gendered at all

What people aren't considering is how and why the parent or pupil results in using swearing.

I'm not advocating swearing but I'm empathetic to how situations arise.

You are a pupil. It's zero tolerance. You realise before you attend lesson A you've not got your homework. Your anxiety increases because you know it's zero tolerance.

The zero tolerance leaves you feeling powerless. The whole ethos of zero tolerance is that teacher is all powerful and student loses their voice - and realistically their humanity. Humans make mistakes and have outside influences in their lives.

You attend lesson and are instantly put in detention for not having the homework. No questions asked. Therefore no empathy to your situation. At some point all that power from above stripping you of a voice will cause you to explode. Rightly or wrongly you may swear.

But stripping students of a voice is treating them with a lack of respect. Respect should be one of the biggest values in a school and should work both ways.

I think people are reducing this down to a very rose-tinted image of a student coming in and sitting silently at the back of the room and being punished.

My experience is totally different from that. IME, that student will usually come in and mask the anxiety about homework with disruptive behaviour. So how are you supposed to proceed?!

If swearing were acceptable to all in all situations then it wouldn’t be swearing, would it?

No I agree in some spheres it isnt swearing in the sense of being particularly offensive language

Purple in that situation that's where zero tolerance fails and pastoral care is required. It needs a whole school ethos of recognition that behaviour is communication.
So when the student comes in defensive because their anxious you should employ the tactics of "you talk and I'll listen" of giving choice and a get out. Of recognising the behaviour is part of a bigger picture.

That's not to say in certain situations you need to act first to keep others safe. Or that you remove the child from the classroom etc. But that as part of that you work to address the driver of the behaviour. Work to derive the experience that's driven the behaviour and the feelings surrounding that experience. That you work with the pupil to teach them a better way.

Punishment for having feelings you can't manage does not succeed in many cases to a resolution or a solution. It only succeeds in giving the child another negative experience and driving more negative feeling which drives more negative behaviour.

I don't for one moment think when you have a class of 30-35 students to teach teachers have the time to address this with the child there and then. Or it's productive to the learning of everyone for them to devote that time.

But.... "X, I can see you are angry/cross/ not ready to learn. We can talk after lesson. Right now I need you to decide if you are ready to learn and can remain in the lesson or you need to work outside/go to pastoral/ have 5 minutes outside and return".

It's about building up that respect. Building that that they have a voice that will be heard.

There is nothing wrong with a discussion about "I understand you were anxious about X so reacted this way. Let's work together to find a solution to the problem (Eg hand homework in following day by 9am.). Let's work together to find a way to support your organisation so it doesn't happen again. As you know school rules are X. Therefore you need to sit a 30 minute detention for .....".

It's not about not giving consequence, it's about a holistic approach the the child and their needs.

Recently a conversation like this led to a serious safeguarding concern when a disclosure was made.
Had the teacher just punished continuously for the lack of homework the child was likely to have continuously clam up and behaviour may have escalated - and no one would have known what went on behind the closed doors of their home.

My DD has ADHD & ODD and our school are zero tolerance. Thankfully for us, the deputy head teacher is on our side and we talk daily. DD is excluded from lessons when she can’t cope, she has somewhere to go so she doesn’t disrupt others and has her space.

She is medicated but it doesn’t cover the whole day and of course, if she is holding a lid on it during the day we get the repercussion after school but that’s ok because I can manage her, I love her and I know her triggers.

She has issues with materials, struggles with the school uniform and likes the comfort of her coat but, coats aren’t allowed... this would be ok to be challenged if 5 other students weren’t wearing their coat when the zero tolerance is applied to DD. She can’t get her head around why she is being “picked on” and her defiance kicks in.

She is on behaviour watch which is fine and I support that (I hope that’s the right thing to do for DD?) frustrates the hell out of me when she gets a 3 for fidgeting or forgetting a pen. I feel an achievment because she turned up and managed to stay there.

But then I work in a hairy arsed industry where I cant afford to have an attack of the vapours because somebody has used naughty words.

I have never had an 'attack of the vapours'. You seem to be saying that parents and students should be allowed to give free rein to their emotional outbursts, because life is difficult for them, but teachers (who have a stressful job and are human beings with problems like anyone else) should just man up and put up with offensive behaviour. Why the hell should they?

Perhaps there's a need sometimes to recognise that the parent or student feels they are being patronised, obstructed and dismissed and that is what is provoking an emotional outburst.

On the occasions when I have felt I had to raise a concern the most constructive conversations have been when my point of view has been properly acknowledged even if in the end the result hasn't gone my way.

I don’t expect teachers to understand but DD does. She thrives of consistency. Lack of equals a melt down...

GnomeDePlume

Is that what happens in your 'hairy arsed industry'? Everyone gets a chance to speak, emotional outbursts are a sign of a need to communicate etc? Do you have a conch? Or is it only teachers who need to demonstrate empathy even when people are being incredibly rude to them, to the point of abusiveness?

In my work world sometimes long term customers shout and not uncommon for them to get irate. We are tasked with staying calm and getting on with it.

I’m sure the same is true of eg PAs to the stars, staff in mental health settings and staff in many hotels.

Of course people aren't allowed to be abusive but there is a differentiation between swearing and abusive. If I was being obstructive, dismissive or patronising then I would probably be told to f-off and in my work place that would not be seen as abusive.

Reported 5plsMeAndHim

why? because you can't accept other people having a different pov to you?
Grow up will you

No. Because the young person being discussed has SEND and you are being offensive by describing him as a little shit.

Your post won't be up for long so your ignorance and unkindness will thankfully not have much impact.

Funny really
I used to work in THE hairy arsed industry
and random swearing at the world was ignored
but swearing at anybody in authority was NOT tolerated

many of our staff had learning difficulties / behaviour problems / SEN / ADHD
the probation officer used to come to site to do the weekly checks on some of them as she at least knew where they would be
BUT
with proper management most of them held down a job and earned a wage

some were too out of control but the vast majority could be slotted in somewhere

we were not trained to handle SEN in any way (this was well over 20 years ago in the building trade) but we coped

schools really should find ways to handle pupils
and be given the resources to do so as prison is significantly more expensive in the long run.

GnomeDePlume

Then your workplace is weird. I wouldn't tolerate that from a colleague, a client, a manager - anyone.

Schools do try to find ways. They spend a lot of time and energy trying to do so. Sometimes they lack the resources. But when, for example, you have a class of 30 kids, ten of whom are simply not engaged and are prone to mildly poor behaviour, and another 5 who have significant SEN but not enough to require 1to1 support, it's pretty tricky to implement anything effectively.

No. Because the young person being discussed has SEND and you are being offensive by describing him as a little shit.

But he IS being a shit, and it's not just the school who think so if his work placement sacked him from an unpaid position!!
Having ADHD does not give you the right to jeopardise 29 orher kids life chances. He needs to learn self-control and he learns that by having consequences.He WILL end up in jail if his parents don't start holding him accountable fir his own actions.They are doing him no favours by babying him

Pengggwn I have worked in offices where swearing was not normal but in those offices I found the levels of passive aggression to be toxic.

On the whole I only swear at my laptop (it hasnt taken offence yet) apparently when I swear I sound like Joyce Grenfell losing the plot so try not to as it only causes people to laugh at me.

swearing at a person is NEVER acceptable. Swearing at a situation is sometimes ok so long as you are mindful that some people really do not like to hear swearing at all .
I think people ned to be aware that sometimes wellbehaved children find it distressing and/or frightening to witness extreme misbehaviour/defiance and contretemps occurring in the classrooms. Parents of SN kids talk about ow scared and overwhelmed their children feel when they have a meltdown or outburst at school, but are not interested that the quiet well-behaved children can find this sort of carry on in the classroom very scary/distressing

GnomeDePlume

That's you, personally. You don't mind it. The general view on swearing at people you don't know well is that it is abusive language. I'm not tolerant of that like you are.

Much as I am loathe to engage 5plus , it is totally inappropriate to describe a young person with ADHD not coping in a school with a zero tolerance policy, as a little shit.

The school had to apologise to him for not making reasonable adjustments. The majority of children with ADHD will not, due to their SEND (which includes poor/delayed executive functioning), be able to comply with zero tolerance regimes. ADHD involves impulsivity, inattentiveness and hyperactivity. It does not mean that children are deciding to be little shits.

@mumsnet - please remove the offensive post. What was that campaign again? This is my child?