Zero Tolerance, No Excuses...what should happen to pupils who can’t behave?

[noblegiraffe]

There are an increasing number of schools across the country adopting ‘No Excuses’ behaviour policies where the slightest misdemeanour is cracked down on and punished. Children are removed from the classroom and isolated if they break the rules. The level of expulsions is creeping up.

A tribunal has just criticised a school for putting its zero tolerance behaviour policy above the education of a child with special needs.
The student has ADHD and epilepsy, the behaviour policy was applied rigidly and the school now has to issue a letter of apology to the student for its failure to make reasonable adjustments.

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/academy-put-zero-tolerance-policy-above-pupils-education-tribunal

Do you think that schools should be allowed to have zero tolerance?

I accept that swearing in front of them and swearing at them aren't the same, but 'oh FFS' is swearing at them. It isn't just that they happen to be there, you are swearing because (in your eyes) their answer is frustrating. Again, would you speak to anyone in a professional context like that?

GnomeDePlume

but in some situations it can be down to interpretation.

Parent cries 'I'm going to make your life difficult and you will lose your fucking job' and slams down the phone.

I pass on to my line manager (who explains that abuse is not allowed and they will have to deal directly with them) and I refuse to take further calls from an abusive parent.

No interpretation required.

Parent cries 'oh ffs' and slams down the phone.

I pass on to my line manager who explains the rules of the school

No interpretation required.

Pengggwn and BoneyBackJefferson, you have read the situation differently so interpretation is taking place.

With zero tolerance there is no opportunity for the student to explain why the homework got forgotten or why the parent is so frustrated by the detention.

GnomeDePlume

That doesn't matter, because we both agree the swearing is unacceptable.

Whether it mattered would depend on the whether the sanctions for swearing at or being heard by a teacher were different.

Does zero tolerance allow for a 'court of appeal' within the school?

No opportunity for a student to say that homework got left at one parent's house and student had to stay at the other parent's house at no notice?

No opportunity to say that the student needs to be home on time to look after sibling as single parent has to get to their evening shift/visit sick relative?

No opportunity to say that there are other, bigger, things than school going on in that student's life?

I'm lucky, my DCs are lucky. Their home life isnt chaotic. Throughout their school days there has been a parent at home to take up any slack. They have sailed through school without incurring a single detention between them. But that does not mean that I dont see that this isnt the case for all of their friends.

That's the problem with zero tolerance, it hits hardest on the students and families who are struggling to keep the show on the road.

Sorry, it's very late, so I haven't had a chance to read all the comments, but the children of two friends of mine were royally fucked up by a school that came down very hard on them for minor misbehaviour. Totally separately, but both children had suffered their parents separating just before they started secondary school and then they soon became labelled as bad by the school. They ended up spinning out of control for a good few years.

There needs to be control and discipline is schools for everyone's benefit, but there also has to be pastoral care.

GnomeDePlume

They are two very different things.

Being sworn at
and
being in the vicinity of someone swearing.

GnomeDePlume

You're conflating the swearing with the homework issue. I'm not defending zero tolerance policies on homework, but on swearing at staff. And 'For fuck's sake' and putting the phone down is totally unacceptable, and yes, I would count it as swearing at me, not just in my hearing.

I am not conflating, the two things are part of the same issue (forgotten homework and the impact of consequence on student and family).

One person interprets the swearing as being at and the consequence is that parent is labelled as being rude and abusive and is not engaged with. The other person interprets the swearing as being in the presence of and engagement continues albeit possibly with a more senior manager.

And just to add another twist to this, I have a colleague for whom English isnt his first language. Every other word is f---- (learnt his English from truckers!). Yet he apologises if he accidentally says 'bloody'. Not all swearing is the same.

Swearing at staff and your child not doing his homework are two separate issues, in my view. And the example of swearing you gave isn't acceptable in my eyes at all.

Hopefully you've explained to your colleague that it won't be well received by teachers, medical professionals, the bank, customers etc if he peppers his speech with the word fuck Gnome

Many building site workers won’t care though! It’s the norm there! The Irish seem to use swear words as every other word in some quarters. Having listened to the Irish at Cheltenham last week, there is clearly a language of swearing within a language. It seems embedded!

It's not necessarily 'swearing in the presence of' though, is it? I know a number of teachers who have been sworn at by parents. Saying in tears to a teacher "It's a nightmare, I just can't fucking get him to do his homework - oh sorry for swearing!" is also very different from "Oh for fuck's sake" and hanging up. Having a slip of the tongue when upset, and knowing you shouldn't have said it - kind of understandable. Swearing at the teacher in annoyance- unacceptable under any circumstances.

What people aren't considering is how and why the parent or pupil results in using swearing.

I'm not advocating swearing but I'm empathetic to how situations arise.

You are a pupil. It's zero tolerance. You realise before you attend lesson A you've not got your homework. Your anxiety increases because you know it's zero tolerance.
The zero tolerance leaves you feeling powerless. The whole ethos of zero tolerance is that teacher is all powerful and student loses their voice - and realistically their humanity. Humans make mistakes and have outside influences in their lives.

You attend lesson and are instantly put in detention for not having the homework. No questions asked. Therefore no empathy to your situation. At some point all that power from above stripping you of a voice will cause you to explode. Rightly or wrongly you may swear.

But stripping students of a voice is treating them with a lack of respect. Respect should be one of the biggest values in a school and should work both ways.

I remember the closest I became to swearing on a phone to a teacher. She actually told me my ds was 50% responsible for all disruption in class - yet could give me no concrete examples of his behaviour. Her reasons for this were - his writing is illegible, he is socially immature, he cannot work in groups effectively and he is easily distracted.
I did not and do not disagree that these behaviours are evident in ds. In fact all are recorded on his EHCP with support to meet outcomes related to them.

The teacher also couldn't explain to me why my ds writing being illegible made him 50% responsible for the pupils who decided to talk over her, not having the right equipment and searching for it when she wants them to settle down to work etc.

I'm a great believer at looking at the whole picture of how the confrontation occurred - rather than the result.

youarenotkiddingme

I understand the urge to swear sometimes. But I'm not allowed to do so whenever I feel like it. That doesn't remove my humanity, it just means I'm required to behave with civility if I want people to be prepared to speak to me. I don't take calls from abusive parents.

No. Teachers have the right not to be sworn at and treated abusively. Other people's right to vent their feelings does not trump the right of school employees to feel safe and unthreatened.

So in my example if the parent had cried 'oh for crying out loud' then banged down the phone is that now okay?

GnomeDePlume

No, it is rude.

Many building site workers won’t care though! It’s the norm there! The Irish seem to use swear words as every other word in some quarters. Having listened to the Irish at Cheltenham last week, there is clearly a language of swearing within a language. It seems embedded!

Yep, we do. Still wouldn't accept a parent swearing at me. The Irish know well that there is a time and place for swearing, and a teacher/parent conversation isn't it.

Pengggwn so what is a parent supposed to do if they feel that the person they are talking to is being patronising, obstructive and dismissive? It doesnt mean that the person they are talking to is being those things but the parent feels it?

GnomeDePlume

I've no idea - not swear at me, though.

Or slam the phone down.

I don't treat parents that way, I expect them to return the courtesy.

GnomeDePlume

so what is a parent supposed to do if they feel that the person they are talking to is being patronising, obstructive and dismissive?

You take it to the next person in the complaints chain.

Am I allowed to say FFS and slam the phone down on patronising and obstructive parents then? Awesome.

Like I said above I didn't swear - and wouldn't.

And I don't condone it.

But then I'm also the parent who wouldn't judge a school teacher for using a swear word where contextually it was an understandable slip.

I remember sitting in my go surgery. Amazing Gp who employs common sense and does so much for my ds. We hit one of those snags that comes from the system.
I sighed "FFS, why does it always have to be so difficult and so many hurdles to jump".

Then apologised profusely and made clear I was exasperated at system and NOT GP. She just laughed and said she agreed with me!

Yes, my language wasn't acceptable. Yes, I could reasonably have been accused at swearing at her. But in context it was taken as designed. An emotional response.