Zero Tolerance, No Excuses...what should happen to pupils who can’t behave?

[noblegiraffe]

There are an increasing number of schools across the country adopting ‘No Excuses’ behaviour policies where the slightest misdemeanour is cracked down on and punished. Children are removed from the classroom and isolated if they break the rules. The level of expulsions is creeping up.

A tribunal has just criticised a school for putting its zero tolerance behaviour policy above the education of a child with special needs.
The student has ADHD and epilepsy, the behaviour policy was applied rigidly and the school now has to issue a letter of apology to the student for its failure to make reasonable adjustments.

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/academy-put-zero-tolerance-policy-above-pupils-education-tribunal

Do you think that schools should be allowed to have zero tolerance?

‘Caveat’ is a clear concept which is incompatible with the ethos behind ‘no excuses’. It means that the policy is not ‘no excuses’, unlike schools detailed upthread where allowances were not made in reasonable circumstances.

Zero Tolerance and No Excuses aren’t value-neutral terms that can be used as you like with a look of confusion when people misunderstand. They’re ideological, and imported from the US.

I don't believe zero tolerance works. Pupils are human just like teachers.

Zero tolerance doesn't teach skills. It punishes those not yet acquired.

I think there is a time and place for it when there's clear evidence it's a choice but I'm a true believer that behaviour is communication.

For children with send it's usually that demand is outweighing capacity.
Some students are struggling with difficult homelives.
Some have MH difficulties.
Some just have poor organisation but with support to set up planning etc they can overcome this.

I've seen so many students in our local schools with zero tolerance go from being 'good students' to ones on report and getting detentions (sometimes 3-4 a day) in the space of a few months. In one case the school even admit its out of character - but say they child needs to behave. They are ignoring the Mum who is agreeing behaviour is unacceptable but the student needs support. She recently watched her father physically assault her sister and they family separated. School actually said this isn't their problem . Student went from 1 detention in 18 months to 35 since January and 4 weeks on report. Behaviour is getting worse but school insist the punishments and zero tolerance will eventually teach her to "make correct choices".

Students forget homework. They are human. My ds forgot his homework folder Friday with 3 pieces in it. All teachers said they know he does it and hand it on Monday. Three detentions wouldn't have cured his executive function and organisation related to his asd. He will get lunchtime detention if he doesn't do it Monday though - which is fine.

Other schools locally would have given 3 x 1 hour detention. I'm not sure what that would have done other than have given the student less time in the evening to organise themselves. It was a genuine mistake. (He took it it out put 5 pieces in it and then I called him for dinner so he put it on his desk).

I'm not sure there's any simple solution. But I do know the school ds first attended (secondary academy) uses the zero tolerance system to drive send kids out. 7 have had this in 2 years. The other school who does zero tolerance is also an academy.
Not sure if that's co incidence or rule of school. But they are far more "zero tolerant" than "spend funds supporting".

noblegiraffe

But I didn't say 'no excuses' - there are very rare cases where SEND does excuse certain behaviour.

Anyway, I think we are done here as you seem to have a fixed idea of what you want to say.

DD1 got so angry with some kids in her school that she climbed over the fence to escape them. Not her finest hour, and we're glad that she walked back through the gate when a teacher opened it. She got to spend the afternoon in the HT's office for that, and was warned that she would be excluded if she did it again. I phoned her year head, and we had a safeguarding chat (her school is on a main road and she has SEN).
Next week, she stormed out of class, because she was angry with some kids, refused to come back in, then told a teacher she didn't give two shits if she got a red mark. She got a red mark for that. I phoned and spoke to the HT, we talked over the issues, and she said she'd talk to her.

DD1 came home the next day. The HT had told her that if she didn't care about red marks, there were after school detentions and Saturday detentions, and that she cannot talk to teachers like she did. DD1 told her that she wasn't swearing at the teacher, she was telling her what she thought (12 year old SEN logic). Then the HT said "You like my dog, so if you can go 1 week without a red, we'll walk my dog to the cafe and have a drink!"

That was a totally individual response to a child's behavioural needs.

lougle

And how was the behaviour actually dealt with? Did she have to apologise to the teacher she swore at? Was it explained to her that, when she said 'what she thought', she was also being rude and disrespectful?

Obviously you know your child and I don't, but I haven't met many children who would take anything away from the exchange you describe here other than 'Actually, it is okay to swear at the teacher and I'll get a reward later for not doing it for a week.'

Not my child's school but for those who think zero tolerance isn't a thing

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-views/long-read-big-rewards-and-really-harsh-punishments-meet-man-who-says%3famp

Often it isn’t behaviour as such though but an involuntary reaction to a stressful situation the child needs help to employ strategies to control

The background to zero tolerance:

“There is growing interest in a new approach to behaviour in schools – ‘no-excuses discipline’. The idea can be traced back to the 1990s and the US charter-school movement. Since then, a number of charter schools have embraced a zero-tolerance approach to pupil behaviour. This means that all children, whatever their background, must follow every school rule to the letter.
For example, any child with their shirt untucked, or who fails to bring a pen to class, will receive a detention or an equivalent punishment. In order to succeed, this approach, it is said, requires all teachers to raise their expectations, and to believe that poverty is no longer an acceptable excuse for poor educational standards.
The thinking behind no-excuses discipline is that more serious misbehaviour can be avoided by strict policing of misdemeanours. ‘We believe that, like crime, poor behaviour in a school is also contagious; it starts with minor details and spreads through both people and the environment like an epidemic’, explains a charter-school in Fresno, California. Some schools take this approach very seriously. For example, it is not uncommon, in schools that follow this method, to find children walking along corridors in single file and in perfect silence, or to find that conversation is banned at break or lunchtime. In order for this model to succeed, all teachers must be willing to consistently implement a rigid behaviour-management system. It is beginning to be tried in some UK schools.“ www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/treating-pupils-like-prisoners/19107

It makes sense to a point until you get to the bit about no talking corridors and silence at lunch.
How does this teach pupils vital communication skills? How do they learn to develop conflict resolution if they are never exposed to it?

My ds behaviour can be a nightmare. It's not pre planned thing. He doesn't get punished for it. They work hard to teach him a better way. Punishment would have increased his anxiety because he doesn't have the skills to know what to do or how to react instinctively. Increasing his anxiety would have increased behaviours.
However his behaviour and ability to manage school has improved beyond what I could have hoped. No punishment needed.
The right approach has been deployed.

or to find that conversation is banned at break or lunchtime
What on earth?

At Michaela in London at lunchtime the kids are expected to all chant poetry before eating, talk about a given topic during lunch and then do a group gratitude exercise after eating. I think they then get some downtime to chat, but it’s limited.

I think most people would find that too extreme. But surely it's perfectly possible to decide on zero tolerance of poor behaviour without going to those extremes?

As an aside, the only school I've ever taught in which had no real problems at all with behaviour also had no sanctions policy. Literally none. It was a girls' private school. I asked about the sanctions policy at my interview and they said "Oh we don't have one. We've never needed to give detentions or punishments". I was astonished, but they were right, they didn't.

Those schools sound like they're full of cranks, to be fair. You can have a very robust behaviour policy without brainwashing anyone.

Telling kids off is a punishment though. Did they do that?

I think the key to whether you agree with ‘zero tolerance’ or not is whether you would sanction the girl upthread who turned up to school without food tech ingredients after a horrendous night at home.

If you would, that’s zero tolerance. If you wouldn’t, then it isn’t.

I'd have zero tolerance on disruptive behaviour in class, and any kind of bullying or violence outside of class. That's about it. I think they are the only things that need zero tolerance. Maybe you don't count that as zero tolerance compared with the regimes you had in mind when you started the thread.

Locking down students to the point where they aren't allowed to talk is hardly going to encourage an enquiring mind. Or perhaps that is part of the ethos. Do as you are told and don't question.

I wonder how those students fare when they go into university or the workplace? How do they cope with situations where other people don't conform?

Agree with Eolian - disruption, rudeness, bullying, low level disruption all need dealing with to create a good learning environment.

But everyone forgets pens, pencils etc sometimes. If its constant, then its a problem but that's where teachers using descretion comes in.

Some of the things described - single file, no talking, aren't Zero Tolerance IMO - but rather a draconian regime. There's a big difference between having no tolerance of disruptive behaviour, and creating a bizarre environment where teenagers can't chat and have fun.

Obviously there are variations in the understanding of what ‘Zero Tolerance’ and ‘No Excuses’ mean in education terms. Like the article I posted upthread, to me they are ideological terms which started in the US charter school system which were generally introduced in an attempt to raise education standards for mainly black student populations.

I would see a behaviour policy that expected students not to be rude, bully students or piss about in lessons, with a serious of sanctions for miscreants as just normal.

I would see a behaviour policy that expected students not to be rude, bully students or piss about in lessons, with a serious of sanctions for miscreants as just normal.

I'd find it normal for a school's policy to say that students were expected not to piss about in lessons, but in practice the policy doesn't work because it doesn't take into account what happens when the kids don't respect the teacher's authority (and that teacher might be a supply teacher or an NQT) or don't care about the sanctions available.

The reason I think systematic removal from lessons is the answer is that it removes the emotion and the battle. I think that kids learning to see classroom teachers as highly qualified deliverers of knowledge and learning, rather than babysitters and bouncers would be a step in the right direction.

My dd, a compliant and studious year 8 who rated all her teachers very highly at first, is learning pretty quickly that even the best of them can be made to look ineffective by a persistently disruptive handful of kids who are given so many detentions that they really don't care any more. That can erode the respect of even the most cooperative pupils.

Eolian I totally agree that persistently disruptive students should be removed from the classroom for increasing amounts of time if they won’t behave themselves. Again part of a sensible behaviour policy (@Piggywaspushed was saying on another thread that her school didn’t have an SLT call-our facility which is bonkers and surely not common?).

I think a lot of the problem with poor behaviour in schools is due to lack of support from above, not that the policies themselves aren’t strict enough.

Pengggwn
"And how was the behaviour actually dealt with? Did she have to apologise to the teacher she swore at? Was it explained to her that, when she said 'what she thought', she was also being rude and disrespectful?

Obviously you know your child and I don't, but I haven't met many children who would take anything away from the exchange you describe here other than 'Actually, it is okay to swear at the teacher and I'll get a reward later for not doing it for a week.' "

Perhaps it wasn't clear. She was left in no doubt that it was not ok to swear at a teacher, because the very first thing I did when I heard her say "worst day ever" and tell me what happened, was that I telephoned the school and spoke to the Head Teacher, which DD1 did not want me to do. I told her that DD1 could not behave like this and said that she didn't seem to appreciate the seriousness of her behaviour.

The HT told me that she would tell DD1 about the after school and Saturday detentions. I also said I would relay this to DD1. She assured me that DD1 had apologised to the teacher, and DD1 confirmed this when I asked for a more detailed explanation of the day.

DD1 is 12, but performs at a level more like half her age. The HT realised that she has taken a shine to her dog, which is a PAT dog, so she chose to use a walk with the dog as a motivator for future good behaviour, after correcting the bad behaviour.

DD1 got a very firm telling off from me, and was assured that I was on Team Teacher, and that if she got any red marks, she would have every electronic taken from her, and wouldn't be able to go to her SEN youth group until her behaviour improved.

However, the reason she is behaving like this in school is because she is getting angry with peers in class - she needs strategies to manage that, and as I'm not there, I can't provide them. Luckily, her school recognises that this is a job for them, and as she's in year 7, that may take some time to get right. They're committed to her and are happy that these occasions are rapidly reducing. They see it as a success, because the situations are becoming more infrequent and shorter lived.

Yes, I think you're right about that. Although I don't much like many of the 4 or 5 step sanction policies I've seen in action. Usually the kids find any steps before detention actually laughable. And some just won't turn up to detentions anyway.

I think that lots of teachers see SLT call-out as truly a last resort and don't want SLT to think they are weak classrom managers. But maybe if every teacher made use of call-out every time it was actually appropriate, SLT might realise how much of a behaviour problem there was and that it is not confined to the weak and inexperienced.

I think its a sad reflection on the experience many of us have had - so much low level disruption that impacts other students being tolerated.

Military, American type schooling is a horrendous import and needs to be avoided. It seems appealing because of at least its a solution to the issues many have had to face.

lougle

Okay. Good luck.