What are STATE schools in London like?

[TeenTimesTwo]

I've been reading with mild interest the issue of exploding offers for CLGS.

But it made me wonder. From what I see in media (TV news, and papers), I have the impression that state schools in London have made great steps forward over the past 10-15 years and are now considered very good.

Is that true? Not just for schools with convoluted admissions criteria (like Grey Coats?) but on average for your ordinary run of the mill local secondary?

If so, why so much angst over applying to so many private schools? And the willingness to set up your 11 year olds for such long commutes? Is the education really so much better? Or is it 'snob value' or fear of the unknown, or 'because that's what my social circle does' or old reputations?

Which one is "the lottery school"? Are we talking about WLFS?

Kingsdale, right?

Best not to name it. Threads saying anything other than how really, really brilliant it is tend to go poof on any sort of social media. Parents are asked to sign a contract not to discuss it on social media at all or risk their child's place. So for the sake of this thread I won't confirm or deny!

Fair enough, though we won’t discuss the school, or any specific school. Not what thread is about.

It's ridiculous is what it is, but yes, not the subject of the thread.

I've been thinking about our nearest schools, not that we would get into all of these by any means, and from memory I think we've got:

Boys school, fair banding
Girls school, fair banding
Mixed school
Boys school, fair banding
Girls school, fair banding
Mixed school
Mixed school (undersubscribed so not sure if they do fair banding but the rest of the academy group do)
Mixed school, fair banding plus 10% music
Girls school, 10% music

FromBothSides: ah, the H chain. Masters of jiggery pokery with the stats.

Rainbow: loads of good secondaries in Wandsworth now! I don’t know if they do classics though.

The Lottery school turned itself around: used to be an ‘avoid at all costs ‘ school. Introduced the aptitude places which bring a valuable tuition package, a Maths scholarship (after admission) and Lottery, and suddenly it was the school de jour and the influx of aspirational families lifted it out of the downward spiral of having a bad rep. You would think by now they could revert to distance and serve the local community.

The nearby sought after (very good comp) pulled a stunt with it’s distance management (now challenged once and for all) and in Lambeth a former ‘school of horrors’ introduced fair banding and attracted high achieving kids. Actually in the case of the lottery school and the Lambeth school
I would say the interventions restored the intake to the whole of the local community, whereas before aspirational parents (of any class or socio economic group) avoided the schools.

Loads of people in our area used to try for Graveney. They don’t bother now, they just go to D or E.

Maybe interventions should only be allowed for 5 years, and then revert to standard community admissions criteria.

That's an interesting idea - the 5 year plan.

I'd agree with you on the increased diversity of the lottery school in that it now has the more affluent kids there as well, but I remain angry at the damage to the children local to it, a disproportionate number of which end up in the worst schools as a result of its entrance policy. If you break down secondary destination by council ward, the majority of kids in that ward aren't going to school locally.

The walking distance bunch are now fine with two opportunities to grab the lovely middle class kids! They chose a strategic starting point for entry distance for the new one.

The H lot I find troubling as I just can't work out exactly what they are doing but they are doing something.

North West London here. I'm wondering if you are too @Backingvocals as if so I'd like to know which school has particular problems with knife crime.

In my area the parents of girls like to live near CSG AND attend CofE church so they also have the choice of St Marylebone. Some people move to Muswell Hill for Fortismere. Some who live in Islington do a test to go to, which one is it, DAO?

Then there are the others who have faith in the local RI mixed sex comp. I'm hoping to send my kids there and am hoping it's not the one Backingvocals was talking about!

Waiting to see where our local MPs children go . I have high hopes but then again who knows, they hedged their bets with primary.

How good is the mixed sex RI comp? I don't know but i know it's not got as good progress 8 as the two local girls' schools, but one of them at least has massively skewed intake. CSG isn't comp byy or Tiggy's idea of comp but they are pretty venement they are.

After reading MN I've felt bad that I've not considered selling a kidney for Highgate or City. But my kidneys aren't worth that much and to be honest I'm quite lazy.

I'm sending the DC into a much nicer lions nest than my 80s London comp.

Latin/Greek is not the mark of a good school. In fact, I think offering Latin may disguise a lot of other issues in a school, especially private schools, which are the ones that tend to offer it.

But it is a hallmark of a good education Daisychain.

Depends on the school. We are just outside London.
Our secondary is outstanding and quite strict. If he school is good, your child will thrive.

If you have a bright child, they will almost 'fight' to remain in the top set for maths English etc. Because so many of the children are exceptionally bright, that you have to work hard to remain in top sets.

So, no badly behaved kids, who don't want to be there, ruining it for said bright kids. As a pp suggested.

Ooo Marigold, am wondering how your local MP (him with the hair) hedged his bets with primary?

Going back to fair banding or should that be 'fair' banding. CSG for example asks that parents register for the banding test before the CAF deadline (summer holidays, I think). This obviously favours the organised and invested. It then bands according to those who sit the test, not by national standards. Those that sit the test tend to have a higher average and so the bands are artificially raised.

A boys' school in the other direction bases its bands on national standards. Because it historically wasn't seen as particularly desirable, these bands ended up being higher than those based on those taking the test so that they Band A distance admitted was far bigger than Band D. It's now become far more desirable and I'll be interested to see if they change to adopt the CSG model.

In other words, banding is another criteria than can be manipulated by schools looking to secure the best intake.

Another school nearby has a language aptitude test. It doesn't take the 18 highest scoring applicants but the 18 highest scoring applicants who wouldn't get a place by any other means (distance, sibling etc). If an applicant gets an aptitude place but then ends up getting a distance place (as the applications shake down), then their place will be given to an high aptitude scorer rather than someone nearby.

London schools are engaged in a race for the easiest to teach as by far the easiest way to raise results.

@Marigold If your local MPs are Corbyn or Thornberry I can tell you... QE Boys for Corbyn (though he did divorce his then wife over it), Dame Alice Owens and London Oratory for Thornberry. So, super-selective out of borough schools. If you're in Stoke Newington, then your socialist MP's son went to CLS then Cambridge.

In their half-defence, this was all a long time ago.

We are in Westminster - without outing us or the school any further .

Raindrops I don't really agree - not if the French teaching is shocking, for example (random example! No school is directly referred to) No once-a-week Latin so you can court the parents can make up for that. Few will take it to GCSE, even if they learn it lower down the school. Two of my children took Latin - though neither opted to do it at GCSE. One of mine had an selective place at Graveney, another went to private school, another went to another comprehensive where it wasn't offered - and wouldn't have wanted to do it, even if it was.

(PS, if it's KS, I saw him at the Burghley open day, if that helps. School on the up with an excellent head, imo, as long as it doesn't get too screwed by funding, but that's the danger.)

Latin should NEVER be a deal breaker at a state school.

The fact that all of the science staff are Supply
Or that all foreign languages have been dropped
THAT is a deal breaker

And sadly, outside London, without the extra funding, its an all too common occurrence.

Choice in much of the country is between the school and home education.

Big city residents (and this applies also to Birmingham and Manchester and Leeds/Bradford) really do not understand how irrelevant the extra lines on the form are for many people.

I've been googling and advanced searching but unfortunately can't find it, but a couple of years ago on Mumsnet someone posted a graphic showing the massive "catchment" of Camden School For Girls before they actually tightened up their admissions and gave their places out fairly. Admissions in Band A covered a huge area, mysteriously. It was really striking!

I remember someone on a webchat with David Baddiel asking him how come his daughter went to CSG when he lived something like 5 miles away! He ignored the question .

lotsofsighing State, but hedged as location of house means the state school isn't very representative of the (wider) local area.

Hair?! That makes me think of Boris. No, Zimbabwe thinking back bench Brexit. Eldest is due to go to secondary in a few years. I so badly want him to go to the mixed sex comp. I think it would do wonders for the minds of some parents who were umming and ahhing over risking it. Conversely would also be true I suppose. I can't get overexcited about it either way but will find it interesting. That's the sort of thing that seems to matter in London state schools in addition to all the other stuff.

I hadn't Noticed that WE was becoming a bit more popular and I'd not read about their banding. Will see soon if the local Y6 boys will go there or to AB.
I'd not understood the significance of the academy c of e schools language places either.

I'm soooo glad you remember that Red. ...

I'm guessing one of those non selective music aptitude places....

Team Newman.

Obviously all the science teachers being supply or dire French teaching are unnacceptable but I never see a head complaining their teachers can't teach having qualified only that they are overworked.

FWIW both ours took Latin GCSE. DS took it at A'Level and has a first in Classic from Oxford. It will be v useful for dd's university course at Cambridge.

We opted out for both children having tried a sought after cofe in London where behaviour was shocking amongst the staff and students and where there were pockets of absolutely awful teaching. And the pianist (middle class parents) kept braying about how spiffingly marvellous it was and so beneficial to be so diverse. It was bloody awful. The results remain good although were deteriorating due mainly to tutoring and support at home.

Zimbabwe for I'm- how predictive text, just how?

I've got a Latin A level (from a state school) and went on to study it further as part of my Oxbridge degree, but I still don't see it as a factor in what school I might think of as good for my children. One school I know locally claims it teaches Latin but at the time we knew it, which was about six years ago, the truth was that one sixth former was doing it via distance learning with support from the school.

Kids from schools that don't teach Latin can go on to do a Classics degree, even at Oxbridge, if they're interested. They are intensively tutored when they arrive.

Marigold I was referring to that one with the hair (not as ridiculous as Boris' but still). I knew his kids were primary aged. I completely agree with you how these sort of decisions can massively influence the wavering primary parents. Andrew Adonis opted for the C of E academy for first child (him off the architect of academies) but then St Marylebone next which definitely didn't show the greatest of faiths. BTW the CofE academy is massively changing its demographic via the aptitude places - every year they get 18 such kids and all their siblings consequently... The distance gets smaller and smaller.

David B child has a musical aptitude place. But I'm pretty certain his son goes to WE or AB so he can have a pass.

Camden Girls map mentioned above is here
www.camdengirls.camden.sch.uk/page/?pid=1234
Compare 2014 to 2016.

I know this is rolling back a bit, but to clarify.

No I don't know every school, but for various reason she I do know quite a lot. Directly. Myself. The practice you describe - especially given the selection models and the 13+ entry round - is IME rare. Now, you think I don't have adequate knowledge if London private schools. Fair enough. But in all my experience I have never come across an actual example of a London school which weeds as a routine 'keep the grades up' exercise. I realise there may be inhibitions about naming schools which do that in an open publication, but I would like to know more if you would consider giving me some examples by PM.

Also, I did not mean to say that pupils are leaving state schools for private, though of course some are and some move the other way. I was using the 18% figure to show how, when you look at different age/stage of pupil, you will get different figures of usage. The 7% headline is therefore misleading, because it makes no account of the very low numbers in the earlier years. It's 10% for secondary years - across the country. I haven't found figures for London. The comment was meant only to show that the 7% figure that is widely bandied is not always quite what it seems.

Big city residents (and this applies also to Birmingham and Manchester and Leeds/Bradford) really do not understand how irrelevant the extra lines on the form are for many people

I did, only too well. Because despite there being several state schools within 3 miles, 2 of which I'd have been very happy with, one OK, there was no way we could have received and offer because of the sheer number of other pupils who lived nearer. There was only one school we knew we would qualify for. And that was in the days before it was academised, and it had a number of quite severe issues (one of the first schools to have a police presence) and didn't offer triple science. So yes, I know that dpfeeling of having no choice all too well, and how awful it would be could we not have afforded a way out (either by moving or by buying a different education)