What are STATE schools in London like?

[TeenTimesTwo]

I've been reading with mild interest the issue of exploding offers for CLGS.

But it made me wonder. From what I see in media (TV news, and papers), I have the impression that state schools in London have made great steps forward over the past 10-15 years and are now considered very good.

Is that true? Not just for schools with convoluted admissions criteria (like Grey Coats?) but on average for your ordinary run of the mill local secondary?

If so, why so much angst over applying to so many private schools? And the willingness to set up your 11 year olds for such long commutes? Is the education really so much better? Or is it 'snob value' or fear of the unknown, or 'because that's what my social circle does' or old reputations?

I also should note that we put three schools on our secondary state application form. That's all the choices we had in a three mile radius. We live in H&F, which is the worst borough in the country for percentage of pupils who get their first choice of school. We have basically ONE option and the other two, only a tiny chance of getting an offer. The ONE option we have was started by the infamous Toby Young and both DH are opposed to everything he and his cohort stand for. Its a tricky situation in Central London and I don't judge anyone who is trying to make decisions in the best interest of their children.

Talkin Many "comps" are much more like my local school than the one my kids attended

Oh OK. If that is the case then I can see why people would be keen to avoid them. But how do you know this?

So, yes, most London secondaries have improved out of sight, but there's a natural fear that this state is not permanent.

most London comprehensives (non-religious) are well out of the top 500 schools

So state schooling as a whole hasn't improved that much in London? Only in patches or in the selective state schools only? I don't really know how many secondary schools there are in England, so don't know whether being out of the top 500 is awful or not.

re Donations. I can't think that if someone turned up with a cheque for £10,000 for a state school they would be turned away by any HT.

The thing is we in London are just generally pretty angst ridden about everything and choosing schools is a whole great avenue of stress for us to pick over.

London state schools are generally very good especially in closing the gap between disadvantaged and others. Our primary school, requires improvement graded, has been great and I'm glad on many levels that we choose it for our children.

The thing is that London private schools are generally very good too (not in closing any gaps for the disadvantaged, obv). They're better than most private schools outside London. We looked at them for secondary, can afford them, and our kids have so far been able to get into the most selective of them.

The state funding issue is a real factor for us having seen its effects over the years. We just thought, we can afford this for secondary and although it's clearly wrong to use private schools we're typically selfish parents when it comes to our children.

I'd also mention that while state schools in London are generally good, because of complicated admissions systems they are very segregated. If you're neither religious nor musical, you find that your local state school can have disproportionate amounts of pupils who are barred from the more honeypot schools (such as the ones mentioned above).

A lot of vocal people of influence in London are not going to typical secondaries - you only have to look at the fact that Blair and Clegg's kids go/went to the same school despite one living in North East London and the other living in South West London with probably a hundred schools situated between them.

So the answer is a little bit more nuanced than merely snobbery and racism. But yeah, snobbery does come into it.

MrsLittle Are there many areas like yours in London whereby there is effectively no choice in the state system due to black hole locations? I can absolutely see then why there would be desire for private schools for those that don't like their 1 option.

I'd also mention that while state schools in London are generally good, because of complicated admissions systems they are very segregated. If you're neither religious nor musical, you find that your local state school can have disproportionate amounts of pupils who are barred from the more honeypot schools (such as the ones mentioned above).

I didn't realise this. I thought it was only rare schools that used aptitude tests. This sounds as if it is more widespread.

I don't think it is clearly wrong to use private schools . I'm trying to understand why people in the London area seem so angsty about it all. It is becoming slightly clearer.

Good point about London indies being stronger. Don't have the figures in front of me but reckon if you looked at the Sunday Times league tables then there'd be 20 Greater London schools in top 30. It does make the choice a bit different.

I live in London zone 2 and we had 3 realistic choices for my son - 2 are single sex and one is a fairly long journey away (has a wide catchment as it is a newish school with a patchy reputation).

So it's a good job I'm happy enough with the 1 he eventually got into (after a summer on the waiting list) because there is no chance of paying private fees here. Not that we would, anyway.

I think it's (mostly) clearly wrong to use private schools. Doesn't stop us doing it though...

People who live in London are, to generalise, the sort that like to exercise choice and this in combination with a far wider range of schools within geographical reach means that they can become more self-selecting. Thinking about the posher families at my kids' primary, at secondary they're stratified into musical aptitude, the remaining grammars, privates, language aptitude, renting next door, faith etc. The less interested/obsessed parents go to the nearest available one. This has a self-fulfilling effect as the ones with more involved parents gets better results and so becomes more attractive to involved parents etc.

@TeenTimesTwo RE: Are there many areas like yours in London whereby there is effectively no choice in the state system due to black hole locations?

We have lived in three different areas, both in SW and West London and experienced the same issues with a shortage of secondary school places. If you are not religious and outside of a grammar school priority catchment area, you are left with the comprehensive "sink schools" as they often called. DH and I would have preferred a state school, but we weren't willing to pay the costs associated with moving and losing our local community. The deciding factor was when my DD came home from an open day at our local comp and said, "It was very strange. Half the class wasn't paying attention to the teacher and didn't seem to be interested in learning." She's been bullied over the years and we really didn't want to put her yet another school with such issues. I understand the bullying can happen anywhere, but when kids work so hard to get into a top private school, the drive is a bit more focused.

thanks for starting this thread. I was starting to have palpitations reading the City thread. DD will start secondary in London in a few years and I hadn't realised how badly we would let her down by not even trying for the independents.

In reality we have no money to pay fees and I couldn't bring myself to tutor a very reluctant child anyway. Even so I am having a panic as it's obvious from that thread that somehow I am letting my child down in some way.

It's difficult to talk about London state secondaries without bringing your own experiences to bare. I went to one in the late 1980s at the height of teacher strikes, funding cuts and left-leaning child centered education. The local RI mixed comp looks fantastic to me. Another family in my childs year looked round it and came out ashen faced; the dad went to a public school and he couldn't think he would send a child there. I am not sure what I thought was so great about the school, or what the other parent found to be so poor.

And that's without the worry that we could be in the catchment for a school mentioned by Mrs, but we don't want single sex. Which of course is why we ruled out CLSG

TeenTimesTwo, I think Mrs Little is wrong; London comps do very well in challenging circumstances and Ofsted recognises that by judging most Outstanding. Personally, I think (hope?) that the breadth of experience my DS enjoys at one of them will more than make up for maybe inferior facilities. So long as, clearly, some kids achieve highly academically, it does not matter (in a non-selective school) that not all do, indeed you wouldn't expect it. Apart from anything else, if my DS turned out not to be particularly academic I'd want him to have space to be something else without feeling a total loser!
And you're wrong about the top 500, Mrs Little, for what it's worth (it includes selective grammars, which fill most top 500 places). But of the six London comps we have applied for, 2 Are in top 500 and two more 500-1000. None of them are the schools you mention. Only one of them (placed 600 ish I recall) is CofE.
By the way Teen I grew up in Hants myself. Most of my parents' friends sent their kids to Bedales (very posh progressive school). I went to Havant Grammar, but this is back in 1970s. It's now a 6th form college I believe.

If the comps are actually de facto secondary moderns because they are all near enough to selective schools for top sets to be creamed off, then you would expect the average attainment to be lower. Though that wouldn't mean that the teaching was poor.

I feel so grateful I accidentally ended up living in my area of Hants. I followed a job relocating to here, and schools didn't cross my mind when I was 22.

Private schools have more money, of course they do you are paying fees! If you can afford the fees but go state consider making a donation. Then a state school will have more funds.

Do state school accept donations? Too right they do. A wad of £20s in a brown envelope will do very nicely cheers. Paying for a 50p can of coke, they have been 50p since about 1990, with a £50 and not wanting change, bring it on. Setting up a direct debit to give a school so much a month, you'll have them kissing your feet. Box of photocopier paper, tissues - especially primary school, buy a new school chair, books especially primary and especially reception. art supplies, sport supplies, a donation to the bloody electricity bill. I'm sorry but a quid for dress down day isn't going to cut it anymore.

So many resources in schools are purchased by the staff themselves. So give up your Costa for Lent and give the school the money. Give up the fag or the vodka and give the money to the school.

If London secondaries are considered the best in the country, just imagine what they could achieve with the same money or some of the money given to private schools.

It's no good looking to the government to save education. It is parents and teachers who are and must do that.

Sorry I'll get off my soap box now. Thanks.

@marytuda Its great that you had six schools to put on your form. Like I mentioned, there are black holes in many parts of London where you get one choice of school. I agree that comprehensives do a great job of educating a very mixed and diverse intact of students with sometimes challenging circumstances. London schools also receive a budget premium over other secondaries in Britain to help with these challenges. As someone else already pointed out, there is no assurance that this will continue. The Tories have already tried to remove the London pupil premium once.

I really don't think its a right/wrong situation. Depending on your area and your child there are many different situations in a city of 11 million. We have friends who were offered an Ofsted "inadequate" secondary school 7 miles away because the nearest four schools were over-subscribed with tight catchment areas. Being non-religious certainly works against as two very close and amazing schools are both religious. Its definitely not a straightforward process or the same for every person.

Many C of E schools accept some heathens.

I think it’s deeply unfair to suggest that for some it’s snobbery. As with many things this amounts to shades of grey. As parents from a working class background we actively sought out schools that didn’t adhere to old fashioned values. What hasn’t been mentioned here is the dispersed nature of living in such a big city. I and my partner work in the city and live circa 10 miles from our work places. But we socialise across all of London, meeting friends and family and going to events all over. For us it was a good bonus that CLSG was right near our workplaces. We frequently meet up after school to travel home together or go out etc. If you have a stay at home parent having school near home is great but not so useful if there’s no one home all day. The state system of nearest school to home doesn’t fit all lifestyles. Our decision to go clsg was multifaceted (including things like state school cuts, resources for sports etc) but the travel issue is more complicated and naunced than suggested here. And let’s be honest, as a swimmer I could donate every penny I spent on private to my local comp, they’re still not going to have a swimming pool on the premises.

shall I tell you why people choose to educate privately?
Because the majority of state school students in inner London state schools are Black, Asian, Turkish or eg Polish.
It is simple snobbery/racism cloaked as a 'concern' about standards.

Yep I am definitely a heathen! And will be happy to accept lovely CofE comp if they'll have us. Must take break now.

notmyredditusername365 I was being slightly tongue in cheek.

But honestly read that thread as a poorly educated Londoner would read it. A parent surrounded by wealth and educated peers. It has left me slightly reeling and worrying about what else I don't know that those "in charge" do know

@Quickerthanavicar the CofE primary school opposite my house which I can see out my front window had 100% church places at the time we applied. Due to campaigning from my DH and I, they now admit three "heathen" pupils every year, which was too late for us to benefit from. Lady Margaret's admits heathens if you happen to live 0.1 miles from the school and score in the correct banding category. I have better odds playing the slots in Vegas. Don't even get me started on Sacred Heart which even Catholics struggle to get into. Welcome to H&F!!

Think London is a bubble of A) stupidity and B) parent angst and fools easily parted from their money.
All reports put London and SE state schools miles ahead of a;; oyher regions.
The idea tutoring only goes on in state schools is stupid, on a indie v state 6th parents paying over £25000 for schooling ( I know many people who live of less for a whole family) and averaging A and A*, are paying tutors.
We live in Yorkshire, of our nearest 10 secondary's:- 3 require improvement, 3 are inadequate, 2 are good, we can't get in and other 2 are just out of special measures, both for about 5th time.
No one doesn't use one of them.
Most get between 45 to 68% A* to C at gcse, I would guess most on this thread would have vapours, and be running for the hills.
Ds1 is a national schoolboys champion, and is choosing between three uni offers, 2 unconditional, plus has a CV which would make many adults jealous, he is 17, all at a inadequate school.
it's only on here that 75% of the world uses private/boarding schools, around us less than 4% do.
Like I said you are all living in a bubble, and god help your kids if they ever need to leave that London/Se bubble

Are there non-selective private schools at secondary level in London? if so, how do they select their non-selective intake iyswim?

(ie in non PC language, Where do parents of 'rich but thick' children send their children?)

TeenTimesTwo Eton