Should the DfE be offering £26k bursaries to train as a Classics teacher?

[noblegiraffe]

Given the recruitment and retention crisis and the school funding crisis, is it really the best use of funds to be paying £26k for teachers to train in Classics (and then presumably sod straight off to the private sector)?

Although I doubt they're expecting many takers, it does seem to display completely messed up priorities.

I'm half wondering if Toby Young has said he needs more Latin teachers for his WLFS and the DfE has, as ever, pandered to his whims.

Yes absolutely Bubbles on every point and yes too re £100k for no stress.

The idea that you can earn £100,000 pa easily elsewhere and have no stress is almost laughable. What job pays this with no stress?

is that how much you think teachers are paid?

I'm all for it

Good, how do you propose they achieve that without sufficient funding?

MumTryingHerBest this isn't entirely theoretical with me but there are always decisions to be made. Leadership of a school is vastly, vastly more important than the funding coming in. There are funding cuts but we need to be careful before we imply that schools can't function and provide a good curriculum - I say that coming from one of the least well funded parts of the country in terms of education. Weak HTs will blame any unpopular decision at the moment on funding cuts to minimize backlash.

mum by spending all the millions going to Brexit lawyers and blue Passports in Education instead? (Just an idea)

goodbyestranger could you just clarify what you mean by your last comment:

"Yes absolutely Bubbles on every point and yes too re £100k for no stress."

Do you think that teachers are paid £100K?

showersinger - by spending all the millions going to Brexit lawyers and blue Passports in Education instead?

so how you propose schools make that happen?

Clarification:

a) no job earning £100k will be without stress. I was agreeing with Bubbles who made the point clearly.

b) HTs will be the only ones earning £100k in the teaching profession except possibly the DH in a vast school.

Why the fixation on £100k? .

Why the fixation on £100k?

I'm not fixated, I'm confused. How exactly does this statement relate to schools teachers in any way?

"The idea that you can earn £100,000 pa easily elsewhere and have no stress is almost laughable"

School teachers don't earn even close to £100,000 so what is the relvance to this thread?

The idea that you can earn £100,000 pa easily elsewhere and have no stress is almost laughable. What job pays this with no stress?

I did not say 'no stress', I said "less stressful" [than teaching]
Plenty of roles are less stressful than teaching, even very highly paid ones. All my family are in computing, apart from three teachers. I know which are most stressed.

The idea that you do not teach subjects like Latin is just a race to the bottom

This is right.

My DS is applying for a Classics degree, and was lucky enough to have done both Greek and Latin at A level. We were concerned at the time he chose his A levels that he was limiting himself, but his head of departments assured us that graduates had no problem finding employment. Indeed applications for Classics degrees seem to be increasing, with even Oxbridge offering Classics degrees with no previous knowledge of either language.

The study of Classics is not just about the languages. The subject covers ancient history and the development of civilisations. It includes the development of philosophy and rational thought, ethics and morals which should govern our behaviour in a society.

It includes the first ideas of how laws should be formulated, identifying concepts of justice and keeping order in society, forming the basis of a political and legal systems which have pretty much prevailed for thousands of years.

Classical thinkers introduced the concept of rhetoric, the ability to think and form a strong argument in debate or discussion. Theology and religious beliefs are also scrutinised by the Classics, as are the very first principles of how to educate the next generation!

Classical writers provided us with the first novels and plays (that have survived in written form).

IMO all these things are incredibly important and valuable to teach children at school, they are the very roots of so much of our own culture, and if there is a shortage of Classics teachers then yes, it is worth this bursary to encourage more into the profession.

I have often been very depressed by your (numerous) posts noble, criticising, almost sneering, at some new effort to try and improve the educational outcomes of children. You work in a deprived area I am guessing, but underlying your posts is always the feeling that you think the pupils who come into your orbit will never amount to much, and your expectations of what they are capable of achieving are pretty low.

If teachers have that attitude, it’s no wonder the pupils have no respect for education, and don’t believe that it can offer them any benefit for their future.

Oh, and a nurse. More stressed than any of us, in fact!

You work in a deprived area I am guessing, but underlying your posts is always the feeling that you think the pupils who come into your orbit will never amount to much, and your expectations of what they are capable of achieving are pretty low.

Hah, you are in fact not as clever or as insightful as you think you are, because you are wrong on all counts.

The Headteacher at Bingley Grammar School was interviewed by the BBC regarding his decision to move Music GCSE to an after-school activity (it's still on the curriculum for Years 7 and 8);

Mr Weston said: "Last year we had two or three kids in class and now, having moved to our new system, we've got 25, which is more than we've had in the last five years"

"We've had no complaints from parents."

He said the introduction of the "nominal" charge was "nothing to do with funding, it's really allowing our kids to have an extra GCSE at a time that suits them

Mr Weston rejected the suggestion that some children would be priced out of studying music saying support was available for those unable to pay

He added: "We are paying 99.9% of the bill. The GCSE cost is not £5 a week, it's significantly more than that"

I wonder if people would be so keen for money to be thrown at classics trainees if other subjects also didn’t run when schools couldn’t hire teachers qualified to teach them. When school after school was forced to stop offering maths, physics, computing, various languages, or seriously reduce the amount of time they were taught to each year group and instead the timetable was filled with sitting in the hall when no qualified teacher was available, or PE if Maths was previously being taught by a PE teacher. Then people might see the extent of the problem.

Why, if Classics is such an important and in demand, then why hasn’t every school got Classics being taught by MFL teachers, history teachers and good old PE teachers like other subjects?

is that how much you think teachers are paid?

No, but it's what some teachers seem to think every other "professional" is paid!

the unintelligent suggestion that increasing classics teaching was a Tory policy.

But the Tories are in charge and it’s something they’re doing.

They’re not seeking to increase Classics teaching in the state sector, by the way. There is absolutely nothing tied to this bursary saying that recipients have to teach in state schools. Given that most Classics jobs are in private schools, what will be happening is that the Tories will be paying to train teachers who then teach in the private sector.

Ha, ha, you have forgotten about the new grammar school policy already - they will need more Latin teachers!

Which new grammar schools?

So Latin is only important then if you're a Tory voter or go to a private school? What a depressing attitude. It is the foundation of many languages in Europe and helps massively with understanding our language and its meaning and origin, as well as many others. It would be a sad day if Latin ceased to be taught at all.

Our grammar doesn't teach Latin sadly. DD4 is thinking of having a go at applying for Classics ab initio, simply because she saw a poster on the wall of her sixth form centre explaining what the degree encompassed - it ticks every box for her but still a real shame that she hasn't had any opportunity to try the subject at school.

noble is correct Clavinova - no new grammar schools just bigger PANs where an existing school goes down that route for extra funding.

If a grammar school needs a new Classics teacher, it’s fine, they can staff it from their History and MFL departments. They can follow the textbook - Caecilius and all that.

My medical student child finds having Latin gcse very helpful. She immediately understands posterior and anterior, etc. There are a lot of Latin terms in use.

Weald of Kent Grammar School opened its annex for up to an extra 450 pupils in September 2017 - Latin not on the curriculum for this particular school but who knows where the next one will be...

On a more (serious) note - Latin is actually a very popular outreach project for many private schools keen to show their public benefit;

www.schoolstogether.org/projects/classics-outreach-project-with-local-schools/
www.westminster.org.uk/partnerships/educational-partnerships/
www.colfes.com/community
www.thomas-s.co.uk/Latin-Outreach-Programme
www.stpetersyork.org.uk/st_peters/academic/issp

Also, Classics for All Foundation
classicsforall.org.uk/
Recent grants:
classicsforall.org.uk/our-grants/directory-awarded-cfa-grants/