Should the DfE be offering £26k bursaries to train as a Classics teacher?

[noblegiraffe]

Given the recruitment and retention crisis and the school funding crisis, is it really the best use of funds to be paying £26k for teachers to train in Classics (and then presumably sod straight off to the private sector)?

Although I doubt they're expecting many takers, it does seem to display completely messed up priorities.

I'm half wondering if Toby Young has said he needs more Latin teachers for his WLFS and the DfE has, as ever, pandered to his whims.

Tory priorities showing...

I grew up on a council estate, don't vote Tory and did Classics at a state school. I'm sick of it being considered an elitist subject and would be delighted to see more Classics teachers in the state sector.

The whole system is a massive joke - the money thrown at new recruits is a waste. Once they're in the system they'll leave because it's so broken or they'll pop off to a lovely private school. The money should be spent training and retaining teachers in English, Maths, science and MFL to give our young people at least a chance to make things better. There are so many people who are victims of this ridiculous system.

And OP, YANBU - money being spent on subjects which are more of a luxury than essential is just another example of why our education system is crap. I'm not saying Classics isn't a useful subject, but when there are core subject teachers leaving in droves surely it makes sense to fix that problem first?

Former English teacher here, FWIW.

£26,000 would go a significant way to increase non-contact time of current teachers and may actually result in the staying. We must focus on retention not this open door policy of throwing money at trainees who don’t last the distance (we have some fab new teachers but some rubbish ones).

The new enthusiastic recruits are not necessarily trained by the moaners though noble.

Out of all the many many teachers I've encountered in recent years on both sides of the fence the best teachers are not the ones who moan endlessly and there are some very good new teachers coming through, whose qualifications and attitude can knock spots off the jaded moaning ones who clutter up staff rooms.

Obviously there are still legions of teachers who are still positive and enjoy their vocation. Very important to retain those ones of course, just not the ones who moan about every last policy initiative and post on the internet/ bang on in RL about it rather than embracing change as opportunity and positive for the pupils they teach.

Too late for my own DC but if this leads to the re-introduction of Classics as standard in state schools then fab (I don't think it will though which is a shame).

I start my pgce in geography in September. It wasn't until my 1st interview that I found out that there was even bursaries available. Then to find out what a geography trainee would get?! I was shocked!

I think there is another £5k incentive after 3 years, then another after 3 (I may have the years wrong). For retention. It's seems very insulting to current teachers, but at the same time. There's no way I could afford to do the training without some financial help.

Spot on goodbyestranger. It is not about paying people more for hanging around the longest.

It is obvious that bursaries must be tied to actually doing the job for several years. 5 would possibly be fair. Many years ago, when I received course fees paid by my employer I had to work for 2 years after qualifying. If I did not do this, I was contracted to pay back the fees. They were paltry in comparison to £26,000.

Oh goodbye I know you have me pegged as a moaner, but actually, I am on the whole better at my job than young and enthusiastic recruits because I know what I'm doing. Experience does actually count for quite a lot.

I think there is another £5k incentive after 3 years, then another after 3

That's only for maths teachers. £20k upfront then £5k after 3 and 5 years. Not sure why it's only for maths, maybe it's a trial.

possibly a trial noble But after the initial £20k..... realistically is an extra £5k going to be an incentive after 3 years if the job is as full on as it is made out to be? Surely the money could be better spent on better working conditions?

The money should be spent training and retaining teachers in English...
How big a pay raise would £26,000 give to existing teachers? 0.01p a year ?

money being spent on subjects which are more of a luxury than essential
Classics is no more a luxury than Drama, Music, Art, RE, DT, and dozens of other subjects taught at school.

Playing devils advocate, I wonder how many 'experienced' teachers have had it easy for a few decades and got used to an easy life? Now they are being made to work for their living they are finding it hard to adjust, so no wonder they are leaving. Maybe new teachers wont have that expectation and will find hard work a normal part of the job, just like most other people in other industries do?

It might make them hang in there for another year when they might previously have quit I suppose. But reducing the upfront amount might put people off even starting training when they could get higher starting salaries elsewhere and also not be faced with the possibility of yearly real-terms pay cuts.

Er, yes there is a big shortage of Classics teachers. They’re a struggle to come by.

Playing devils advocate perhaps it would be a good idea to look at the retention rate of new teachers before assuming the retention problem is down to experienced teachers who don't like working for a living.

Maybe new teachers wont have that expectation

Yeah, you need to see the dropout rate for PGCE students and new teachers. That totally isn't the case that they're happy to put up with ridiculous workloads.

And the DfE has miserably failed to meet its recruitment targets for several years on the trot, so the newbies are put off even before starting!

I wonder how many 'experienced' teachers have had it easy for a few decades and got used to an easy life? Now they are being made to work for their living they are finding it hard to adjust, so no wonder they are leaving. Maybe new teachers wont have that expectation and will find hard work a normal part of the job, just like most other people in other industries do?

Here we go again. Lets all pile in and drag any thread involving a question about teaching down to teacher bashing. It's so unimaginative, and not really worth explaining to anyone who doesn't really want to know, just to criticise.

There's a big shortage of D&T teachers - the DfE only recruited about a 41% of those needed last year (compared to 78% of classics teachers needed). Yet they're not worth £26k.

I have to wonder, Julie, if you've ever stepped foot in a school since the eighties?

I am confused as to why Maths isn't on that list for bursaries. (Other than the peanuts they're offering for primary maths)
But astonished that with my 2ii in an EBacc subject I can get £26k to train (does this get used to pay the fees though? So £16k really?) to teach, but DH with a 1st in maths would get nothing?

Lets all pile in and drag any thread involving a question about teaching down to teacher bashing

I wasn't trying to have a go at teachers. I think a lot of secondary teachers are underpaid for the work they do. And my DC mostly have great teachers, its not a job I could do, more respect to them. Was just interested in the answer to that idea as I am not a teacher and do not understand all the problems in schools today.

Apologies if I have offended any teachers on here.

Playing devils advocate, I wonder how many 'experienced' teachers have had it easy for a few decades and got used to an easy life? Now they are being made to work for their living they are finding it hard to adjust, so no wonder they are leaving. Maybe new teachers wont have that expectation and will find hard work a normal part of the job, just like most other people in other industries do?
No one goes onto threads about nursing recruitment and says that people are leaving nursing because they’re lazy, do they? There was one the other day where everyone piled on to sympathise with working conditions for nurses and how hard and stressful it was. Teachers do not have it the worst, but because everyone went to school they think that they are an expert. The stress of working in a school at the moment is for a lot of hard working, dedicated and experienced people unbearable. Teachers are usually perfectionists and people pleasers by nature (no one goes into teaching wanting to do a crap job) and successive policy changes have put enormous pressure on the profession to constantly move the goalposts. We cannot win. Parents complain if there’s homework, if there’s no homework. We are held responsible for the learning outcomes of teenagers with increasingly poor mental health (which we are also blamed for) under huge amounts of pressure and bogged down with never ending paperwork and data. Parents also want us to teach budgeting, and life skills etc etc etc.

Recruiting shiny new teachers isn’t necessarily the answer, I have 10 years classroom experience. Yes I am expensive. But you need a MIX of experience, expertise and enthusiasm to be a successful teacher.

To be honest I think it’s crazy.

Especially when you consider with nhs degree courses (shortage of 34,000 nurses) not only have they removed bursaries but now have to pay tuition fees.

But back on point yes I do agree if there’s money they should focus on retention, and then more mainstream subject recruitment. My dd was taught science in her gcse years by non science specialists, had 6 successive English teachers in years 10-11 as they all kept walking out, sometimes mid lesson and is currently doing A level product design without a DT teacher.

Oh and my sister left teaching because she was told she had to teach gcse maths. She’s a qualified science teacher so they shot themselves in the foot there. Not only are the school now short in maths teachers they’re short on science teachers.

I have a son who took a first in Classics last year at Oxford and a daughter in her way to Cambridge to read a subject for which an ancient languave will be useful.

Our prerequisites for secondary selection were: three sciences separately taughf, a classical language and a good mfl offering.

Unfortunately in our Lindon Birough no school offered this and as our dc were linguists rather than scientists Tifgin was a non runner. We therefore had to meet their needs via the independent sector.

State schools need to raise their game. F a comp does not iffer what a selective school woukd in terms of curriculum then it is by decault a secondary modern because it does not meet the needs of all children in order that they may reach their full potential.

My DCs are in state education and Classics would benefit them immensely. I did a course at Uni and it was very useful. You are being narrow minded.

Teaching Latin and Greek alongside MFL makes sense, as they both have an input to many languages.

However, "Classics" is not just about language, it's about the histories of some of the cultures that existed around the Mediterranean, putting them on a pedestal above other ancient civilisations. If they expanded it to cover all cultures such as the many Asian ones that rivalled and arguably exceed Rome and Greece it would be more inclusive.