Should the DfE be offering £26k bursaries to train as a Classics teacher?

[noblegiraffe]

Given the recruitment and retention crisis and the school funding crisis, is it really the best use of funds to be paying £26k for teachers to train in Classics (and then presumably sod straight off to the private sector)?

Although I doubt they're expecting many takers, it does seem to display completely messed up priorities.

I'm half wondering if Toby Young has said he needs more Latin teachers for his WLFS and the DfE has, as ever, pandered to his whims.

I'm working through Minimus Mouse with my dd (when either of us can be arsed). Knowledge of Latin helped me with MFL and history.

Classics always seems a bit of a hobby subject to me. Like music or Art Philistine here Hugely clucked about by Grammar school parents of potential medics.

I have a DC with a first in Maths doing Maths teacher training. He definitely fits into the category of enthusiast new recruit. He also accepts that his earning potential is far lower if he follows a career in teaching. The bursary/ scholarship has no strings attached if they choose not to stay in teaching and it's also not taxable. They can still get student loan for the £9K fees. That means that he is considerably better off in his training year than he will be as an NQT.

The workload is huge though. Easily 60+ hours a week. Average that over a year and it eats well into the long holidays. I accept that lots of careers require 60 hours a week. Working every evening and at weekends. Just not for a teachers pay of £23000.

Maths bursaries are being staged from next year, presumably because so many have failed to stay in teaching. I suspect that training recruitment of Maths trainees will be lower as a result.

It costs the NHS £230,000 to train a doctor. It's been suggested they should repay that if they leave the NHS within 5 years.

Just to clarify: a pp said her DH was earning 4 x as much as a new teacher. Crudely I calculated this as £100,000. This is where the figure came from. Not that lots of teachers are earning this. The Executive Head of DNs Academy is earning £150,000. I have no doubt she has a certain amount of stress but of course some deal with it better than others.

Noble: you have, on other threads, continually talked about deprived children that you teach and how their life opportunities are limited. I think you protest too much and you are very negative so tend to agree with pp above.

A new Maths teacher can get more than £23,000 and think of that huge bursary!! 60 hours a week for 38 weeks is 2280 a year. Not all of this is contact time and lots of people would settle for this when the career progression can be very quick. Many get DHead now in early 30s and be a Head before 40. He just has to see the bigger picture. There are more opportunities for salary progression in teaching than in nursing.

Classics always seems a bit of a hobby subject to me. Like music or Art Philistine here Hugely clucked about by Grammar school parents of potential medics.

A hobby? Latin and Greek?

Noble: you have, on other threads, continually talked about deprived children that you teach and how their life opportunities are limited

There are deprived children in most schools, and it's true that their life opportunities are generally more limited than those of advantaged children. That's just an obvious fact?

You are very negative

There's lots to be negative about. I'm supposed to post lots of 'hurrah, it's all going great' threads while state education disintegrates before our eyes, am I?

Classics always seems a bit of a hobby subject to me.

Lets not forget education should be about USEFUL, UTILITARIAN, CAREER subjects. God forbid out kids actually derived pleasure or enjoyed any of it.

our

Our bog-standard comprehensive has started to offer Latin one lunchtime a week. Unfortunately, the time they've chosen clashes with the chamber orchestra.

I may be wrong, but I suspect the pupils who would like to do Latin overlap quite a bit with the ones prepared to play classical French horn for 45 minutes at lunchtime.

I have no doubt she has a certain amount of stress but of course some deal with it better than others.

Well if, as has been suggested on this thread, experienced teacher are leaving just because they are work shy and don't know how easy they have it now, I'm sure we can all look forward to them returning back to the profession fairly soon.

There are very many people who have stressful jobs. Teachers shout about it all the time yet the rewards can be very good. Teaching jobs do not have a monopoly on stress or long hours. Ditto NHS staff. These still are jobs for life with great pensions. Even with the changes they are great pensions. Lots of teachers and NHS staff can, and do, retire early. All of this makes the jobs a better bet than many self employed people who have big bank loans to keep going and staff to pay. I find very few in the employment of the state ever give a thought to the advantages they have regarding the overall package. Generous sick pay too.

It is not correct that all schools are suffering and that education is disintegrating in this country. I come accross lots of teachers who are enthusiastic, ambitious and have every intention of staying in teaching. I do believe it is poorly managed schools where there are problems.

There are, of course, deprived children everywhere and SLT and teachers should use the pp money, which is fairly generous, and not previously available, to try and overcome some of the problems. Also deprived does not necessarily mean low achieving. This is the lazy assumption that makes me cross. One of the best things about teaching should be opening the eyes of pupils to the possibilities out there, no matter who they are. No just wringing hands and leaving the job to others. That is negative and it really needs to be addressed.

Pensions for public sector workers are now pretty shitty. There were some big changes a couple of years ago. Women are particularly disadvantaged if they take maternity leave. Don't believe the hype.

BubblesBuddy perhaps you can enlighten me on this generous benefits package that teachers are on?

It’s surprising with teaching being such a fab job that PGCE applications have dropped by a third this year. And who will this hit the worst? Yep, kids in deprived areas.

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/alarming-new-stats-show-teacher-recruitment-down-a-third

“Geoff Barton, the general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders, described the figures as "alarming" and "pretty disastrous".

“It’s alarming, I think, particularly as we know there are going to be another half a million children coming through the system over the next nine years... It’s pretty disastrous for a profession which is going to need more teachers.”

He added that the communities most likely to "suffer" from under-recruitment "are the very ones that the [Department for Education's] social mobility strategy say need the best teachers".

I think the point is not that Classics isn't a great and helpful subject- I have no doubt I would enjoy it and find it very interesting- but that most "lower achieving" comprehensives don't offer and cannot afford to offer Classics when they can barely afford to offer Maths.

You work in a deprived area I am guessing, but underlying your posts is always the feeling that you think the pupils who come into your orbit will never amount to much, and your expectations of what they are capable of achieving are pretty low.

Hah, you are in fact not as clever or as insightful as you think you are, because you are wrong on all counts.

Oh good, I’m glad that’s the case. In that case I can go back to ignoring your interminable negative posts.

It is not correct that all schools are suffering and that education is disintegrating in this country. I come accross lots of teachers who are enthusiastic, ambitious and have every intention of staying in teaching. I do believe it is poorly managed schools where there are problems.

You can't make this true just by claiming to have met some enthusiastic teachers, I'm afraid. The profession is losing thousands of teachers in general, not just from the most poorly-managed schools.

Of course lots of teachers are planning to stay in teaching. They have mortgages and bills to pay and families to feed. But many of those who feel able to leave are leaving. Not because they aren't enthusiastic, talented teachers, but because the system sucks and therefore the job sucks. I'd rather cut my own arm off do a pretty menial job for a low wage than go back to full-time teaching in a state school atm. And teaching was all I ever wanted to do, since I decided age 12.

Teachers have employers who pay into their pension fund. They do not have to pay every penny themselves. This is a great deal. So are he final pensions and lump sums. The general taxpayer also funds the pensions. If anyone thinks they are shitty they are utterly ridiculous! They are not. Work out what you will get and how big your private pension pot would need to be to get that amount every year. Annuities are about 3% p/a return. Teachers are still very well looked after regarding pension arrangements. No-one has stolen the teachers pension fund have they? It’s just one more thing the state (us) have to pay for in return for you educating our children.

It staggers me that knowledge of the outside working world is so poor!

It's ok, soon there won't be so many teachers left so you won't have so many pensions to pay for. If teaching is so cushy, why are so many teachers quitting and breathing a sigh of relief once they have a private sector job? There have been quite a few on MN alone, and some who quit the private sector to become teachers and then headed straight back again when they found out what it was like!

If on paper teaching seems to be like such a great deal and yet teachers are quitting and people aren't signing up to replace them despite large financial incentives then that means that in reality something is very wrong.

BubblesBuddy your post is a little vague. Could you be more specific.

I think trying to argue that teachers are getting a great deal because they get a pension is a little odd, tbh.

I got private health care, shares, expensed lunches & evening meals/socials, travel allowance, use of a well stocked kitchen for tea/coffee/fruit and snacks, fully expensed mobile, paid accommodation abroad & use of a hire car (great for having OH fly out and join me for a weekend away) etc. I'm curious what the great package is that teachers are getting that enables huge numbers of them to retire early.

It's not a case of whether Latin and Greek are important subjects and to be encouraged. It is a case of what is the best use of the bursary money, when funds are limited. Where is the greatest area of need?

Maths teachers and linguists are massive shortages. Achieving decent teaching so you can get a pass grade in Maths is certainly more important than having access to Latin for most children. Of course it is good for schools to offer Latin and there is a shortage of Latin teachers and it is right to try to recruit more, but in the overall scheme, I think it's right to put more effort and funds into the core subjects.

That said, even with the bursaries, even might be talking about 20 Latin teachers training, and so actually the total expenditure on these bursaries is relatively low. If thousands were receiving the £26k then it would be a far worse use of resources. And it is true that whilst one need (such as Maths) might be more serious than another (Latin) it doesn't mean that every single resource should be given to to bigger need and zero to the other. I suspect that the total funding given to Maths bursaries is far far in excess of that given to Latin - it's a key fact.

BubblesBuddy are you a teacher?

On the subject of disadvantaged children: www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/gcse-attainment-gap-disadvantaged-pupils-will-persist

"“Little or no headway” is expected in closing the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their classmates in the next five years, according to a new report from the Education Endowment Foundation."

Hi noble I have skipped a lot of pages and do see your point mainly BUT just thought you should know:

my best friend is an ardent socialist and teaches classics.

His son is chair of the Regional Young Communist Party and has Latin A level!!

the state (us) have to pay for in return for you educating our children

Pardon?