Should the DfE be offering £26k bursaries to train as a Classics teacher?

[noblegiraffe]

Given the recruitment and retention crisis and the school funding crisis, is it really the best use of funds to be paying £26k for teachers to train in Classics (and then presumably sod straight off to the private sector)?

Although I doubt they're expecting many takers, it does seem to display completely messed up priorities.

I'm half wondering if Toby Young has said he needs more Latin teachers for his WLFS and the DfE has, as ever, pandered to his whims.

So designed to appeal to a particular demographic of parent. Tory priorities showing...

I don't see that we should cede the Classics to the Tories.

I would suppose that it is better off parents with a nice choice of schools who care whether their kids' school offers Latin or not.

Those in more disadvantaged areas would probably be more concerned whether their kid would have an actual maths teacher this year or a string of supply teachers.

You don't have to consider something of paramount importance to value it.

Poor parents in disadvantaged areas are probably stuck with what's on offer, anyway, though. Regardless of what they value and why. So it's moot.

I don't really understand why they vary the bursary amounts so much. A subject is either a shortage subject or it isn't.

You don't have to consider something of paramount importance to value it.

So who set the value of Classics at £26k and primary maths at £20k less and why?

They probably have an algorithm or a ratio or something. Vacancies to trainees.

I think it depends on how dire the shortage is, Battle. They ballsed up with English this year, underestimated how short of English teachers we are. I think the English bursary will be increased next year.

But its not a case of a Latin teacher or a Maths teacher, you can train both of them.

I know parents in more disadvantaged areas would love their children to have the education those supposed elitists get. I dont get this class warfare, everyone deserves a good education.

It's a lot of pernickety fiddling about, isn't it?

After all, a trainee is either needed or she isn't. She's not 18% less needed than a PGCE student of X subject because of last year's figures. It's a bums on seats binary, really.

I do understand why you're pissed off. Every year they fiddle about and offend a whole different group of teachers.

What is shocking is that the bursary isn't dependent (or certainly hasn't been, I confess I've not read the link today) on the recipient teaching in a state school, or schools for the next 6 years or so.
Friend's dd knows of several people taking the bursary who have no intention of being teachers.

If I were a trainee I would think this meant that there must be jobs around, and there aren't. When I trained I got a 12k bursary. 6 years later and my subject is no longer taught in most schools. I wish I hadn't been lured in by the bursary!

But its not a case of a Latin teacher or a Maths teacher, you can train both of them.

You probably can't hire both of them. Schools are laying off staff left, right and centre. The arts, drama, tech, all losing teachers. The idea that schools have spare cash to set up and staff a classics department is bonkers.

If there's a shortage of Classics teachers then I don't see the problem. We should be applauding the decision (whilst also calling for more funding for other subjects).

If there was a shortage of Classics teachers and plenty of money in the pot then the case could be argued.

As it is, there apparently isn’t enough money to give the teachers they’ve already got a pay rise. A focus on retention rather than throwing ridiculous sums at recruitment might be a more productive approach. Keep the teachers you’ve got and you won’t need to train so many new ones.

The bursaries might also be linked to what they think would be enticing to people with that degree. I don't know what the average starting salary for someone who has a classics degree is but I wouldn't be suprised if starting salary for someone with a first in maths is 25,000+ (though that's just a guess).

the better question is definitely why private schools consider it valuable but it is offered in so few state schools (and also why all these bursaries don't require a minimum commitment to working in state schools - and the same question for med school).

Classics is good for the study of English and other languages, can take you into an interest in ancient history too. I don't see why it's a face to the bottom where we have to prioritize only useful knowledge that leads directly to the sort of jobs most people will end up in, that's hardly the dream of education is it?

Yes. It's a really good idea. Perhaps more of us state school parents might see Classics being taught in school. That would be excellent progress at last.

Disagree about retention as opposed to recruitment. Schools arguably need some fresh enthusiastic recruits not better paid incumbents who frequently moan a lot of the time.

I studied Latin at a state school (and earlier at a private school) and found it helped with other languages as well as helping with my general vocabulary. My children won't have the same chance since the Classics teacher is dead and unlikely to be replaced (same school, which is the only available one).
My personal experience has been that Latin is important in helping to develop skills in other subjects, so I'm glad if new teachers are being tempted in, but that only works if there is enough money to pay them. If the basics aren't being covered (and they obviously aren't always- our local secondary school has had to make savage staffing cuts) then improvements are a luxury.
On the plus side, I'm enjoying teaching my sons Latin, using the same textbooks I had at school (Cambridge Lain- Caecilius has been in horto for a very long time!).

Who do you think trains those fresh enthusiastic recruits, goodbye? And incumbents are better paid because experience is hugely important (and yet bizarrely undervalued) in teaching.

I bet this won't see more classics taught in state schools where it wasn't before. These recruits will have to train somewhere - in schools which already teach these subjects. They will then probably be looking for jobs in the same area - which would be the schools who already teach classics.

I've just done a job search on the TES. 5 jobs for Classics teachers in the state sector, 2 Latin teachers and none for Greek. All in already established departments, not to set up new departments.

If there is a "recruitment and retention crisis" it seems illogical that schools would be "laying off staff left, right and centre"

Its a chicken and egg situation you cant say no/few schools are (re)starting the teaching of Classics until you have trained enough teachers to make that a possibility.

Maybe schools cant afford 'more' teachers but I dont see any reason why they shouldn't have the option of hiring classics teachers, when they are hiring new staff. So its fair for the government to make sure there are enough trained.

Schools aren’t laying off staff equally across all subjects and staff aren’t quitting teaching equally across all subjects. Redundancies are more likely in Ebacc subjects, for example. Maths teachers are more likely to quit teaching than PE teachers.

And given only 7 job adverts on TES is it really a good idea for the DfE to throw money at recruits in a subject where they will be unlikely to find employment?

I completely understand where Noble is coming from but as a parent there just seems to be a complete lack of good teachers in all areas in the state system. Why have the dept of ed made it so piecemeal, offering different bursaries here and there? It is not at all thought through. The whole of the state system needs funding and an urgent overhaul. My DCs studied Latin at both state and indie and it has been good for them. The indie had qualified teachers in all subjects, which I know is not always the norm in indies. The state had qualified teachers in most subjects.

Hmm well I am a qualified MFL teacher with six years' experience; that £26k bursary is more than my salary last year (yes really; hello performance related pay and year 11s who wish they hadn't picked French).

Something's wrong somewhere. Maybe I'm such a crap teacher I don't deserve the money, someone new and enthusiastic does.

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/jan/22/yorkshire-richmond-school-stop-teaching-latin-600-years

Potter said all schools were having to make adjustments to their curriculum offer because of funding restrictions. “After considering a number of factors, including exam results and student numbers, we have regrettably made the decision to cease offering Latin from September,”