Private schools should be taxed at 25% to fund teachers for Blackpool says Lord Adonis

[noblegiraffe]

Private schools should be taxed at 25% to fund extra pay for teachers in hard-to-recruit areas like Grimsby or Blackpool says Lord Adonis. This £2.5 billion fund could also be used to fund tuition for those in danger of failing maths and English. I'm sure some people on here might have opinions on that?

And he doesn't think pupils should be expelled unless they've broken the law (not sure what he thinks they are currently expelled for but even breaking the law is often overlooked).

"He said whole towns and cities are affected, referring to reports of how doctors in Blackpool use the "Shit Life Syndrome" description.

"Deep poverty, pervasive drugs, obesity, anti-depressants and mental illness in a large isolated town exhibiting alarming signs of disintegration – including the largest encampment in Britain of children expelled from school.

"...For Blackpool today, read also Hull, Grimsby, large parts of the North and the Midlands, and large towns in the South, including Hastings, Dover and Folkestone.""

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/lord-adonis-calls-ban-expelling-pupils-unless-they-break-law

user1471450935 Winchester College doesn't suit all boys and their parents, so maybe your DS's are not missing out on anything.
One of the big advantage of paying is that it broadens your choices and for those who have the means and willingness to consider boarding paying really does widen your options significantly.
Paying can mean means that you can choose a school that you feel is more suited to your DC's needs whatever they might be, e.g. academic or not, liberal or not, a perhaps find a school offering a certain sport that your DC excels at played to a high level or maybe a niche club or lessons in a rare instrument and choice of school is not limited by catchment area/address. I suspect for some parents this is why they turn to the independent sector as they feel that they can find a school that they thinks suits their individual child better without random uncertainty; finding they've been unsuccessful in obtaining a place this year because they live 4 doors outside of the catchment area but would have been successful in getting a place the previous year because less siblings applied.

"Winchester College doesn't suit all boys and their parents, so maybe your DS's are not missing out on anything."
No. But fascinating. That the boys and parents it does suit tend to be those with lots of money.....

Betrand there are some with lots of money who it doesn't suit and yes Im sure it would suit many without money as well all I'm saying is that its not. given that user1471450935 DS is missing out.
Winchester (and Eton and a few others) are genuinely trying to widen access. Their vision is to have a needs blind admission policy I think by 2020. You may scoff at this but its better than doing nothing or only offering small bursaries that only the well off will benefit from.

Re contextual offers - my local uni doesn’t give contextual offers, it gives reduced offers to students who participate in schemes like the Pathways to Law one. As regular attendance is required, realistically these are only open to local students.
I know Aberystwyth gives unconditional offers to students who do well in its scholarship exams but that’s different because you can sit the exams anywhere in the country.

Good morning,
happy I am under no illusions that my DSes could have every passed the entry exams to Win college and Eton. So they wouldn't suit my boys. You have very clever boys and must be right very proud off them. True about private schools you giving you choice and wish your boys all the success in the world, I hope it is their oyster.
iseenodust I understand your points on CU Scarborough, but it gave my DS1 another option and that has to be a good thing surely. I have been to a Ron Dearing UTC open day, DS2 is in year10, so was in target audience. IT was impressive, but my son is more into drama and sport, so not a good fit, so we did not apply. But I concerns over it too, yes let's hope it raises aspirations in the city, god do we did it. But all the senior leadership team had left other local outstand/good schools to start there. So we are actually jus spreading the good teachers over even more schools in the region. God if they could of got someone from Eton or Win College that would be different. Also if you are a science/ It teacher are you going to work their or in Holderness, I fear the former and that sadly further screws my boys education. On top of this our school lost over 10 students to the UTC, at least 6 where DS2's friends. so further reducing our schools funding, and I think worst reducing the number good science/ It peers for DS2. I once again fear our school will be left behind, and that just adds to it increasing problems. You are right about local parents not valuing education being a major problem. when we got OFSTED report saying 4, school put on 2 meetings to advise parents, present and incoming, we couldn't attend the one for current parents, wife and I both work shifts and where on lates. But less than 100 turned up, over 1400 students in school, sister in law went to the new parents one, she is a primary school teacher locally and was impressed with plans, but less than 30 parents went, usually 260-360 students in each year. God help the school and those kids.
The idea of needing students to get good degrees locally and help rebuild, was just mine, our's of leaving and coming back with fresh ideas and wide eyed enthuasuim is probably better. But from personal knowledge, most of the bright kids I went to school with who left have never returned and of our many friends and family with similarly bright children, either studying away or completed their degrees none have or are planning to return to Hull now or ever. So I fear we just lose our brightest, as you rightly say this has been holding Hull back for decades, at least if they stay locally to get their degrees they may stay and improve the city.
I have to work now, I will try and answer ocsock later. once thanks for listening to my concerns and fears for my boys.

Adonis is indulging ideology over efficiency. The independent schools relieve the state of a massive burden of educating a significant number of pupils and in particular provide provision for kids who are let down by the state system including both ends of SEN and G&T, in particular sports and music stars. The sensible policy would be to not only guarantee charitable status but consider tax relief on fees in order to allow the sector to expand and re-establish accesssibility for those who are not remotely in the oligarch category.

Agree roguedad, but I don't think it is a popular view. More people than Adonis are indulging in ideology.

rouguedad an interesting idea but not one I suspect any government to agree to as that would mean admitting that there are some pretty poor state schools out there and that they are failing children. A concept many on here don’t wish to accept let alone a government.
I don’t know Hull at all but Ive done done research and the few I think would dispute that the standard of education is not great. What a terrible situation for user1471450935 DCs and others living in Hull. I struggle to understand how this is allowed to happen.

I am back, after a rubbish few hours, car accident on Friday, one sick car, luckily no serious injuries, but screwed up insurance for a few years. Been seriously researching stats for Hull area and it kids and universities. But I will need to RTFT again, so that can wait, can I answer the three points from Rougedad Empress and happy you are just improving private schools and their pupils at present 7% of uk school kids, rougedad idea won't improve my DSes school and those others what Lord Adonis wants to do as well as Blackpool, Grimsby, Whitby, Scarboourgh, Dover and Folkestone. HE may be misguided like most of the posters on here say.
But I feel like a lone voice in a wilderness or billy no mates or the tax inspector at a party on this thread. Why, because I am I think the only person on this thread who lives in one of Lord Adonis areas and actually has DSes at a local school. Yes iseenodust lives in my county, but she/he has previously stated they will be poor for life due to using private schools, probably to avoid schools like our local one and it's kids, sadly mine included. I made a stupid of the cuff remark about the private schooled kids we know, one sentence in a long post and every person who replied pick up on that, not the difficulties my 2 DS face on a daily basis.
There have been many times over last 4 days since I posted my first ever post, where I felt like giving up and leaving it all too the rest of you.
Sadly I quickly counted through the first pages of this thread until I got to page 6 and my post, didn't count op posts. Figures not totally accurate, mind you.
Posts by private school users/defenders & 75 by 29 different posters.
posts my possible supporters of Lord Adonis/ state school users 20 by 8 posters.
Not one of the 29 private school users suggested other ways to help improve schools identify by Lord Adonis.
I am making no judgement calls hear just leaving out facts, before you all shout at me again.
So why continue posting, because even if I am the last poster on this thread and no follows with ideas to be request in a minute, I hope if others read about my 2 DS's experiences and how growing up near to Hull as shaped their life's and will probably effect their futures, then at lot of southern and private school users will have an idea of just out of touch you all are with reality for millions of your fellow citizens and will maybe make you take a step back and think before you post next time.
Can we use this thread from now on for the brilliant and intelligent women on here to give us, mere mortals (me) ideas how I can give my kids and less fortunate ones why are friends with a chance of escaping Lord Adonis's shit life syndrome please.
Once again thank for putting up with me and reading my posts. My DS's will probably never get anywhere near the opportunities or life chances your amazing DC will get or have all ready gained, I at times. more often since lurking on here, feel my wife and I have if not failed them certainly limited their futures. That why I so believe in education being their great chance to escape.
Thanks, I will between work, try and post where I think my DS have it much tougher than most of your DC and my very humbly ideas to improve Hull and the likes

Sorry, should Say they are friends with not why are friends with.

user1471450935 Yes my DS goes to one of the independents. It was not the plan and he started in state primary but it is the way things have ended up, and we are lucky that we can just manage it. It is not about avoiding other kids like yours. DS plays sport outside school in teams that have children from a huge range of schools in the area (including boys from Holderness villages). I hope I bring a balanced view as I work alongside schools and in public services.

I don't have the answers but I do appreciate the problems your DS face. Most of my friends' children are in state secondaries and many feel let down. Conversely, I have friends who are teachers and they are, I'm sure, doing their best.

One of my theories is about the Hull secondaries not having 6th forms (two huge 6th form colleges). I wonder if this also puts good teachers off moving to a job where they won't have the opportunity to teach their subject at a higher level ? I wonder if it also impacts the low aspiration eg fewer conversations with pupils about long-term goal when school is only responsible for getting a child to GCSE?

ps Sorry to hear about the crash & glad there were injuries.

iseenodust thank you about concerns for crash{smile], car can be rebuilt in the end. Sorry I know you aren't avoiding my kids, depending on sport and his age he may well have played with or against one of mine or in same club. there are times my wife and I feel we should or wish we could pay for our boys, sadly never will happen now. I had written a post about Hull and its problem but lost it because internet crashed, I will post it again in a minute. But it is so frustrating watching 3 of the most inspiriting and enthusiastic teachers DS1 had in early years, IE 7 and 8, all leave, including a Oxford degree holding teacher, to go to all of the 3 local independents, and watch two of them never even been replaced. Then listening to some of the parents of those same schools tell recently arrived parents to area, to avoid schools in East hull and ours by name as all kids are feral and losers, well maybe not those exact words, whilst DS1 who warmed up in that school's Wembley final top, virtually single handily wins their kids rugby team yet another game. I tend to avoid those parents now and especially at rugby union games DS1 never mentions his school to anyone he doesn't know. It isn't his fault he goes there.

This is simply divide and rule. Tell the peasants that their lack of access to suitable education could all be solved if the rich paid a bit more.

Except it doesn't work that way. It's simply not the case that the 7% of dc at independents also have parents who are in the top 7% of earners. And as many others have said it would cost more than it would raise.

Successive governments are responsible for failing schools, both individually and on a county scale.

It's nothing more than a counter productive jealousy tax.

happy Hull is officially known as Kingston upon Hull, though not by locals and is sadly a million miles away from Kingston upon Thames, do locals call it Thames, I guess not.

it is divided into two by the river Hull, there are something like 20 bridges in the city, in the West and East, the west has always been the posh side, West side had fishing, almost all gone, No fish market it's in Grimsby. East side it was Docks and timber and manufacturing, sadly much has also disappeared too. we have North Sea Ferries(P&O) to Rotterdam and Zeebrugge, but much of cargo and passengers just flow through the city.
WE still have BP, Crown paints, Croda, Birdseye peas, Reckitts, Kcom, Jackson Bakery. But we have lost Northern Foods, Seven seas cod liver oils, Priestmanns cranes , Imperial typewriters, Hollis brothers, Humbrol paints, Birdseye frozen foods and Metal box. These have lead to high unemployment and 3/4 generations of non working families, We also have a very high rate of teenage mothers in the city, plus drugs and alcohol problems. A typical post Thatcher northern city.
On top of this the city was surrounded by council estates which have slowly declined, 1000's of these homes have been demolished or stand empty, a friend's son & partner bought one for £30000 ladt summer< 2 bedroom semi with garden.
Siemens and their wind turbine factory is the new hope, 27 apprenticeships last year, 360 children left our local school with DS1 and their 280 in DS2 year. DS1 got 79 and 84 in VR and NVR tests for Local Heta apprenticeships, even got a job, but sadly had to declined due to 0500 starts and 2330 finishes over 35 miles away. There where only 40 engineering jobs available that year, so he is doing A levels
Schools near to us ours is OFSTED 4, not yet special measures, 3 local ones in Hull all have been in special measures at least once in lasy5 years . 1 twice in 21 months. Other Holderness schools one good for about 5 years other good but was in special measures in last6 years. SO unless we could find £20000 to 22000 to send DC to the two local privates, we can't or wife stops work to transport Dc to further away schools, no free buses here apart to local school, we have no choice. We have a great aunt who pays for DS2 to go to maths/ English tutoring and in the past DS1, But we/she can't afford both. That is the background to my sons life and schooling. I will post more soon, but I am needed at work,

Sorry user1471450935 that should be NO injuries. I may have to get off here. My typing has been awful.

I'm sorry you've encountered some unpleasant people and you know they can be found everywhere. Can't be me as DS doesn't like rugby !
Please just know all the private school parents are not like that. My DH worked shifts up until a few years ago and there are plenty of parents in other everyday jobs. 10% of the children get bursaries at DS's school. Our local independent schools are nothing like the names often mentioned on here.

I accept they poach good teachers which is not helpful but I guess if someone is looking to leave they are going anyway. I think I'm coming back to where I came in. We need good jobs to give hope and some new faces as the current ones are insufficiently appalled by results. Would it have been better if the schools had not predominantly gone into Hull-only MATs? More exposure to best practice elsewhere?

I'm hoping nobleg comes back with a teacher's perspective on the lack of 6th forms in school pondering.

happyg you ask how can it be like that in Hull and maybe a great part of it is cultural. Thinking back on users comment that less than 100 parents turned up for a meeting about OFSTED inadequate rating. That's about 14% at best using rough calculation of 2 children per family and assuming only one parent attended per family. That particular school has rural deprivation but it is not as bad as inner city Hull. I would guess most households have an employed adult. Would the level of parental outrage elsewhere in the country be higher than 14%?

So the post above is the back ground story to why my boys are at their school, But please note Hull dominates the Holderness economy, If you live in the West Hull villages you tend to be richer and more educated. Many people commute to Leeds, York, Sheffield, Manchester and even London, often by Train for their careers. I past a secondary school today, same county as ours, 16 miles by car to the west of HULL though, virtually same letters make up it's shortened name (shs) it is proudly displaying banners saying IN THE TOP 25% SCHOOLS NATIONAL, ours is actually in bottom 6%. It is one of only 50 or so secondary schools in England never to have been rated good or better my OFSTED. That sounds awful, especially as we chose the school. Our Son's Granddad(maternal), my wife, her brother, my late brother and I all went. My wife and my brother in law live 10 doors apart from each other in same street, half a mile from there second family home, my mother in law lives 3.5 miles away in my birth village. I milked cows from 14 to 31 and left for Essex, Derbyshire, Cheshire, Lincolnshire and North Yorkshire but ended up back in Hull. Apart from North Yorkshire wife has never left Holderness to live and Brother in law has only ever lived in one village. His wife comes from near to Shrewsbury, she is the traveller, but been here for 20 plus years. Her parents have also moved close by. My old head teacher used to stay you come to Hull to stay, it not a place people travel through, unless you want the north sea 12 miles away.

But my DC's school is under funded, if you pay £10000 or £11000 for two local private school/year, our school gets when friends in fairly dead end jobs, with few career prospects, can afford their own car and go socialising nightly, as you are broke, relieving on mum and dad to afford a banger for your first, and you need to do course work/revise for exams doing A levels seems hard. DS1 often says they won't have to pay back £50000 of university debt will they.
His mum, grandma and I fight all of this daily to keep him on track, He has applied to Hull, Lincoln for criminology and CU Scarborough for Policing, if he goes to Hull he will live in student accommodation for the 1st year.
We regularly, especially myself after lurking on these threads for years, feel like we let both sons down, but we try to install the believe that education will open doors to a bright future for both of them. I know they will probably never get to experience half the thing many of our DC do or reach the heady heights of a career yours will, but I hope they will have better lives than us and will try and improve the lives of others less fortunate than them.
I wish every one who has posted on this thread DC's the best of luck in their life's and careers and I hope they all reach their full potential and the world is their oyster.
Can I also thank you all to listening to my DC's stories and hopefully you will realise not every child gets a great education and our country regularly lets DC like mine down. Through no fault of their own or parents making and often even when we parents try our bloody hardest to install work effect and pride into them,
Could I ask if you want to reply to these posts can you think of ways or improving state education in Hull, Grimsby and Blackpool please I know its hard, I will try and add some of my own humble ideas tomorrow, good night

Not read the entire thread. I teach supply teach in the Preston area and sometimes venture out to Blackpool. With one exception, I am not aware of any long term vacancies, nor are the schools any worse to teach in than anywhere else. I am often struck by the numbers of teachers who grew up in the area and now teach at their old school and I have seem real commitment to their students. The town also has an outstanding FE college with its own university centre so there is already university influence in the town.

Is the suggestion that this money should be used to recruit better teachers? Or more teachers? Cos all that would happen is these ‘better’ teachers would swoop in and leave again, surely? And there is no need for more teachers if vacancies are filled. Using money to support disadvantaged families, to create employment, raise aspirations, ensuring children are fed and warm etc are surely what is needed?

I might be wrong, of course. But I am pretty sure the answer is not more teachers. Not currently. How the teaching crisis plays out long term is another issue, of course, and presumably it will hit the less desirable areas harder. But that’s a different thread.

user, a few observations:

-Recent social science shows that education is not the main key to social mobility after all (causation is not correlation.) It matters, but not as much as the structure of the labour market, unions, etc.

-Education is clearly very important for democracy and civic life.

-The private school posters on here are by and large people with means who have a keen interest in education: it's their "thing," they are obsessed and willing to pay for it (I have neighbours who send their kids to the local state school and buy fast cars instead, that's their "thing.") Some posters may have so much money that they don't have to make choices, but a lot of us do. You are reading the opinions of a very particular subset of people who are so interested in education that they want to talk about it on chat-rooms and will spend all their discretionary income on it.

-Schools do reflect the collective culture of the families that feed into them.

-I sent my DC to state school for primary, my keen interest and engagement did not change things. I was very frustrated. Frankly, other parents did not want what I wanted and had very different ideas to me. I can now buy into a school where I see eye-to-eye with the other parents and the teachers. It's swinging, but I am finally happy.

-Technical education is disappointing, and I am cynical about it. I just sat on a selection panel at work to choose apprenticeship providers, so that we can use our apprenticeship levy. What a joke. I was disgusted. Basically, the apprentices are supposed to get 20% off the job learning. You might think this is a day in a classroom setting or with a tutor. You would be wrong. The money (set by government "frameworks" similar to uni fees) gets funnelled into the "providers." They then nag and cajole the apprentices to log any "self-directed" learning into one of their computer tracking systems so they can prove the 20% off the job learning. Apprentices also are given a one hour to 90 minute call a month by a "coach." How crap is that? What I have learned from this is: there is a whole education industrial complex funnelling funds away from the children and young people into the pockets of managers and facilitators and not providing much substantive value.

It's a really difficult problem. You want answers for how to make things better for your boys. I don't blame you. From where you sit now, you are committed and caring, but you can change things on your own. Problem is, you only have one shot for your boys and the clock is ticking. It's understandable that parents who are able to opt out sometimes do.

Given how hard it is to change the whole system which I now realise is a lot larger than the "teeth" that most people see; it's also a long "tail" of bureaucracy and quangos, and consultants, and providers, etc. perhaps we need more radical answers. I've always thought that "vouchers" were right-wing lunacy. Now I think they might be a brilliant way to give parents real power and cut all the educational-charlatans out of the pictures in one fell swoop.

Thank you empress for taking time to reply to my post. It has been a busy Sunday, DS2 played his first ever competative football game for local team. We are a rugby family and it's 10 years since DS1 played football. In freezing rain thay lost 2-9 against local UTC school team. Then we have had in law's for tea. So can I reply to your considered thoughts tomorrow please. Thanks and good night

"I've always thought that "vouchers" were right-wing lunacy. Now I think they might be a brilliant way to give parents real power and cut all the educational-charlatans out of the pictures in one fell swoop."

An absolutely brilliant idea if your concept of a great education system is one where anyone with any means at all will probably be educated separately from those with no means.

User, you are clearly concerned about your sons' education and taking it very seriously, as does everyone here. Your commitment is the single best guarantor of their prospects; the effort and the last bit will always be theirs.

Never forget, the squeaky wheel gets the most grease.

empress certainly no fast cars here.
Also most of the people know or are friends use the local schools. I know I am correct in saying everyone of us cares just as much as any private school using parent, I find it increasingly patronising that posters claim that they paid because they care more.
DS1 went to 6th form 90 minutes earlier than his timetable required so he could work/revise in peace, we where cleaning for christmas. Then this afternoon he spent another 90 minutes on his history assessment, finishing touches, before another hours revision after tea. He cares deeply.
I am not sure your social sceince is totally correct. First there are many posters on here, who stories I have regularly read, who would seem to blow that theory out the water. One is a regular namechanger, so won't use old names, but claims to be the 1st from her northern comp to go Oxford. She is now a multi millionare, with twins at Westminister school. Also why would you, happy and the likes of iseenodust pay, especially as you all have make choices on how you spend your money. Nobody but a fool is easily parted from their money, and none of you sound like fools to me.
Vouchers won't work for us. We as a family already pay nearly £20000 of tax on £55000 income. I certainly don't think giving up a our fast cars Thats a 13 reg 78000 Nissan Qasqhai plus2 and 23000 mile 16 reg Skoda Citigo( after Friday heavy dented). Citigo costs £131/month and we have paid of loan on Nissan. I suppose we could not go to centre parcs for 5 days or Alton Towers for an overnight stay. Or the day trips to Withernsea, Hornsea, Bridlington, Scarborough or Whitby for a day on the beach. Still don't think they will allow my boys to join iseenodust DS at his school. I suppose we could stop paying our 1000 mortgage each month which cover cost of one going. Think wife and other might just complain about living in a tent, so thats out too. So I agree with minifingerz that will just save you and iseenodust money and lead to a few more abandon state schools and letting off the government from improving my DC's school.
Lots on this thread say they don't use private schools to avoid children like and probably minifingerz kids. Just the schools, they attend as they aren't good enough. But conventely as avoiding my kids at same time. Yes they meet at out of school actitives but it not the same most of my boys friends come from their school envoirnment. Yes their friends from sport but they see them much less then their school friends. Plus most of the higher salaried professioals in the Hull and surrounding are certainly aren"t sending their kids to schools like ours. So it so bloody easy for governments to turn a blind eye/not give a toss, when you can and do pay for your kids to go private. Also it rather convendant that these schools continue to dominate all the good universities and careers. But don't worry because people like haapy can say their are bursaries to Win Coll or iseenodust can say 10% are on bursaries at our school and most parents are just like us. Well you all must be better at budgeting because we have an above average family salary for Holderness and we can't afford to privately educate two DS. So we have to put up with the crumbs the politians throw us, whilst our MP spent over £26000/ year on his daughters education and can't even be bloody bothered to show his face over our schools shit performance
All my wife and I, with massive support from mother in law, can do is encourage our DC to try and break the educational bonds that this government are happy to see hold them back and try their best to break out of Lord Adonis SHIT LIFE SYNDROME, which luckily for most on this thread and reading it will never ever effect you DC lucky them and you. Good night.