Private schools should be taxed at 25% to fund teachers for Blackpool says Lord Adonis

[noblegiraffe]

Private schools should be taxed at 25% to fund extra pay for teachers in hard-to-recruit areas like Grimsby or Blackpool says Lord Adonis. This £2.5 billion fund could also be used to fund tuition for those in danger of failing maths and English. I'm sure some people on here might have opinions on that?

And he doesn't think pupils should be expelled unless they've broken the law (not sure what he thinks they are currently expelled for but even breaking the law is often overlooked).

"He said whole towns and cities are affected, referring to reports of how doctors in Blackpool use the "Shit Life Syndrome" description.

"Deep poverty, pervasive drugs, obesity, anti-depressants and mental illness in a large isolated town exhibiting alarming signs of disintegration – including the largest encampment in Britain of children expelled from school.

"...For Blackpool today, read also Hull, Grimsby, large parts of the North and the Midlands, and large towns in the South, including Hastings, Dover and Folkestone.""

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/lord-adonis-calls-ban-expelling-pupils-unless-they-break-law

On the 'lower offers' issue - a lot of universities give lower offers for students from particular schools. A quick google search will reveal the even RG universities recognise that students in one school may not have the same potential as different student at a different school with equal grades.

Which part of my physics teaching should I give up to do that?

And conversely where are academics, who already work long hours balancing teaching, research and management, meant to find the time to do (even more) work with schools?

a lot of universities give lower offers for students from particular schools.

Links to back this up?

A lot of universities actually don't make contextual offers, but are more likely to take into account context when looking at mixed grades. Where contextual offers are made, they are usually one grade lower.

I suspect this is more to do with a good economy in Bournemouth/Poole.

Bournemouth is not at all comparable with seaside towns such as Blackpool, because Bournemouth/Poole does not rely on tourism - it has a vibrant economy of its own, and has plenty of very wealthy areas. (Sandbanks is for example one of the most expensive places in the country.) The area has four grammar schools and a number of private schools, and the comprehensives in the area are good. Students do go from the area to universities throughout the country - it's not true that they don't venture far. (One can see this from UCAS data.)

I don't think Southampton makes contextual offers anyhow - they aren't that common - but many students from Bournemouth simply wouldn't qualify based on Polar data, or school performance. Inner city Southampton students would, though, as the city's schools are low achieving.

So Bournemouth is simply not comparable to seaside towns such as Blackpool, Torquay etc because its demographics are completely different.

User, this was sort of my point. Bournemouth has a seaside economy of seasonal hotel work, benefit tourism (though the out of season hotels are now more likely to host students from the expanding Universities), and care homes. However on top of this is layered a port which supports some thriving light industry, a financial/insurance sector and more.

So does the presence of money in a town, impact aspirations across the board, or do the less well off have the same aspirations and academic in Bournemouth as in Blackpool. Is there something here that can be "bought" by putting money into schools, or do problems need to be tackled with a broader regeneration approach.

(In context I once had a regeneration manager from a northern town tell me that aspirations were their biggest problem. People were satisfied with the local school and made no demands on it, and then were satisfied with staying on to a future of low employment and low wages. The few good students moved on so they constantly lost the talent they had. Professionals working in the town lived in pretty villages outside. I was working for a London suburb with great schools and the highest rate of new VAT registrations a year - a proxy for new business formation - but where rents were such that new businesses could not afford to expand. Schools were part of the chicken and egg. Without the professionals pushing aspirations it was difficult to improve schools but professionals would not relocate to that bit of the country till schools were better. It would be interesting to look at Salford and the impact of the Media City relocation on local schools. )

The not straying far from home was based on observation. I support and manage property for someone down there, so meet a lot of care workers, trades etc. Their kids are often the first to go to university and Southampton seems to be as far as they will go. I think that is typical. DD has been surprised at how many Bristol students are from the South West. London kids often stay in London.

I would say, from observation again, that having a University seems to be a good thing. However I suspect it is important that the University has a vocational focus and links with the needs of employers in the town. It is not unusual to meet local employees who came to study and then stayed on, thereby contributing to the skill base in the town.

In summary I think Adonis needs to do more homework. Just throwing money at a problem rarely solves it. And as for Sandbanks...I am not sure it is a place, just a mirage in the sand, though I once stood behind Harry Rednapp in the bakery queue in the aptly names Lilliput.

Haven't read the whole thread but just wanted to throw in the alternative to Adonis' bonkers suggestion which would see fees rise beyond the affordability level for many parents hence putting more strain on the state system. (It's also naïve to think that the 25% tax would be ring-fenced securely enough to find its way into education budgets). Add in the fact that private schools would no doubt come up with all sorts of creative accounting/tax planning measures to minimise any tax payable (and why should they pay tax at 25% when ordinary small businesses are paying tax at 19% ?) and any tax eventually raised would be minimal.

I would suggest that this is looked at from another angle. There are many parents who would, for whatever reason, like to send their children to a private school, it's just affordability stopping them. If the government allowed such parents to reclaim up to 50% of the state education funding per child to put towards private school fees (but not claimable retrospectively), there might be a win win situation . Department of Education has less children to fund but without losing full funding for each child so £average available per head of remaining state educated child would go up.
We might also find that some of the pupils moving to the private schools are the offspring of the much derided "sharp-elbowed middle class parents" who would move heaven and earth anyway to ensure they took up a place at the best possible state school, thereby freeing up more places at over subscribed state schools for the rest of us.

I do know the University of Bristol makes contextual offers based on schools attended. They publish a list of them. I think elsewhere it can be opaque.

I think it is interesting that a teacher says her most important function is safeguarding. In reality that, in the vast majority of schools, takes up lityle time. When there is a disclosure I totally accept that safeguarding is important for that child. However in a school day one would hope teaching and talking to 6th formers at some point about their hopes and aspirations would be useful!

Ofsted have now researched into the worst performing schools and found that lack of ambition really holds pupils back.

We used to have a flat at Sandbanks. School children are not a feature of life there!

First ever post.
Not sure I feel qualified to post, but here goes. I am dad of two teenage boys, 17 and 15. State educated from 4 in both cases. Never attended a good or excellant rated school. The comp they attend just rated 4 with bits at 3. It will convert to academy soon. We live 3 miles east of Hull, city of culture. First most of the secondaries in Hull aren't in one MAT. There are at least 5 covering the city. Plus at least 2 covering ERYC schools. They do all compete for students. Including paper,radio adverts.
Secondly I love how is thread is once dominated by users of private London day schools and the elite boarding schools. Apart from bunny. All desperate to defend their right to buy privledge over my boys. Also telling people like my wife and I whats best for our kids.
Thirdly I completely agree with Noble, gettting good universities close to Blackpool,Grimsby and Hull is vital for our futures. The idea bright poor kids should abandon Hull and the likes has lead to us been left behind. We need our kids to get degrees locally and stay local and rebuild. CU Scarborough campus as taken a kicking from iseenodust and bubbles. Can I ask if either have attend a open day. Nope thought not. I have with DS1. It was brilliant and vibrant. New building and a growing student body. Yes it does not do what Oxbridge does, but it isn't there too. Coventry was asked to open 1st and only uni in county of North Yorkshire. York doesn't count as York is it own council authority. So CUSC was designed to offer degrees for health care, social care, policing and engineering which the east and north Yorkshire are crying out for. It is just starting a GCHQ designed degree so people can work at Flyingdales radar centre. Please stop slagging off things you don't know about and sadly will never understand.
Lastly DS1 wants to study crimnology, seen even by some of his teachers as a poor degree. But looking at it is great. Can lead into Policing( his first choice) and youth offending, prisons, adult offendin and probation, border control and even advising the councils/government. He as chosen Hull, Lincoln and CUSC all the same UCAS points, though Hull and CUSC accept foundation starts. Hull and similiar cities need kids like him to stay here and not chase the pounds and dodge paying tax by living in the south east and London. The real problem for Blackpool, Grimsby and Hull is the important decisions are taken by people like the parents on here who don't have a clue or kids like happygardening youngest who thinks he is no different to my child, even though mum and dad paid more on one years schooling than my basic salary is before tax. God help our nothern cities they dont ever stand a chance

Sorry to be back so soon. But most of the parents we know at our 1800 strong state comprehensive, ofsted rated 4. Was 3 when eldest started, he and brother are third generation to go. His niece will go in September too. Dont want our kids to go to bloodly private schools. The kids my too know through rugby and dfe who attend any of local privates are all snotty and over priveledged. We just want our Tory council and local Tory MP and the government to spend money and the bloody time it takes to improve them. But why would they, our local MP was head of education select committe and lives in local market town with 3 secondaries. Two of which are single sex and two of the best schools in the county, but not good enough for his bloody girls so they went private in York. When our school hit rock bottom in September it was so important to him and his Tory council that he still hasn't commented and the council washed it hands. But lets all pretend my having private schools dont in anywayfuck up local schools.

Monkey, how very misguided your thinking is. If MC private school children had to switch to their local schools, do not think that their parents would start campaigning to make their local school better. Nope, they would rather take the easier route and use all the dosh they are saving on school feed to outsource and ensure that they replicate as closely as possible the things which their children would be missing.

Save educational entrepreneurs would open after-school enrichment academies and the holiday times would be spend on beefing up extracurriculars.

Much easier than fighting a losing battle and the parents are more certain of outcomes.

If it happened, I would send my children abroad to the US to boarding schools, whose fees, scarily enough, and not much more than day fees in London.

savy, not save! I hate predictive text!

I give up - savvy.

user1471450935 I think you misunderstand me what my my DS doesn’t believe is that’s he’s any better than your DS’s of course he’s different (but then we’re all different) and he’s been lucky especially through his school where he’s had la wide range of opportunities that maybe your DS’s haven’t had. But he would be quick to tell you that this did not make him better.

You make some interesting and valid points but please don’t devalue your comments by stating that all children who are privately educated are “snotty and overprivileged” this no more true than if I said all children attending state school were out of control yobs.

Nominatrix - how very sad that you would prefer to ship your children off rather than send them to a school where God forbid they may have to mix with state educated children - what do you think happens in these schools? That all the kids are Feral and don't learn a thing? How very misguided you are! What schools need is decent investment and funding and an appreciation of the amazing job they do for 93% of the children in the UK. The tragedy is that our government is full of people like you who have probably never set foot in a state school and have a fear of having anything to do with them.. How sad this thread is.. I'm with user147.

Sorry happy, really wasn't having a go at your son personally. I have to be up at 0415 to start work at 0500. But I will try and explain my thoughts better tomorrow. I was too nervous to explain properly this afternoon. Sorry and yes not all privately educated kids are snotty and awful, just sadly the dozen or so we have had the misfountune to know. I am sure yours are delightful and you are usually very thoughtful with you opinions too. Has I said I will try and explain more tomorrow. Thank you for not totally flaming me

I was too nervous to explain properly this afternoon
User - but not so nervous that you couldn't make a few spiteful digs at privately educated children.

Monkey, I have no issue with state schools. I happen to live in an area where a closing of private schools would be catastrophic on pressure of places. In my area, more than 25% privately educate and schools are good and extremely heavily oversubscribed. If people who could pay had to send their children to the local state, places would actually disappear for those who most need those places as we are just across the street from the school so would get preferential places at the local primary.

Secondary wise, I would send to the US because that is where they will go to university and I privately educate because the schools my children go to have very good track records in getting children into top US unis and understand the difference in application needs and processes. If I had to send my children state, I would have to do much more work and outsourcing which I find myself. I really don't have the time or energy for what needs to be done.

Before you judge people's decisions, you should realise that people's decision to educate as they do is not as simple as you might think.

Dapple please can I apologise to you as well as Happy and both of your children, who I am sure are delightful. But in my defence can I humbly refer you the EDUCATION board where roughly 18 titles down there is a thread called VIEWS ON HYMERS COLLEGE, HULL COLLEGIATE AND POCKLINGTON SCHOOL. Please note these are our local private schools, not exactly world famous I agree, maybe that is the problem. But if you don't read it, can I assure there are posts from Collegiate parents bemoaning Hymers children constantly look down on their child(ren), can you imagine how those children treat and interact with kids like mine. My wife's family have cousins who have been privately educated, they are nice, but live in a completely different world to mine. As I am sure happy's and yours do. But sadly your children and my wife's cousins are much more likely to decide this countries future than mine. Up above MOMINATRIX says she would rather send her children abroad then let go to school with children like mine, would you Dapple, to be far I know HAPPY wouldn't as one of her children went to a state comprehensive, will you attack MOM for refusing to go to state schools. I find the attitude of rather sending kids abroad then to mix with my sons totally offensive.
Especially as DS1 is no different then any other 17 year, he is a national schools rugby league champion year 9, first school ever to go back in following year and defend their title, lost to another Hull team. He has silver and bronze DfE, done outside of school because not enough kids would do it, just 4 for bronze and his friend and him for silver. So 20 mile round trips and working with people they didn't know. He has volunteered for local charity cafes and parkruns and helped school raise near £10000 for teenage cancer trust. He plays rugby union for Beverley colts, won their league last year and joint top again today.He is a volunteer Police Cadet, first cohort for Humberside Police, he has had a great 1st year, helping train officers and taking disadvantaged kids on holiday, Whilst away he impressed 4 serving police officers on how he could cope with boys who where in social services care and constantly stop there fights. He was nominated for cadet of the year. His brother and he are really down to earth and could give loads to this country, but I doubt they will get the chance.
Back to my main point in my FIRST POST how difficult it is for kids in Blackpool, Grimsby and Hull area, as I said above our school couldn't support Dfe, also he is doing a History Alevel, he was set a contolled assignment, worth 20% of this find marks on Martin Luther KIng and his role in the black power movement in the 1960's America, not an unknown person, I am sure you all would agree. Well our school has no resources on him, no books, no copy of his speech's, no films nothing. So he has literally had to borrow library books, use pocket money to buy books on amazon and trawl the internet. I guess that doesn't happen at Eton, Winchester College or your children's school Dapple. He will hopefully get a B instead of the C he is predicted, imagine how easier if your school could help you. Similar thing happened in chemistry last year, nearly caused him to give up, ended failing AS chemistry and scrapping through his geography, bloody no help from school, Poor CAMHS did. So maybe Lord Adonis is wrong to want to tax private schools, but please all private school users realise it is bloody difficult as a parent near Hull, not to wish it could happen and some one, especially MPs would do something to help kids like mine, who are hardly feral. Thank for listening, I don't think it will ever improve and at 48 that breaks my heart. Hull was declining when I was born and is slowing continuing, DS1 and 2 sometimes ask what's the point in saving here in the future if it continues. Answers on a postcard please

"So he has literally had to borrow library books, use pocket money to buy books on amazon and trawl the internet. I guess that doesn't happen at Eton, Winchester College or your children's school"

Actually, using the library and knowing how to find good sources online are used very, very much in schools such as Eton. OK, it has a bigger library, but that's the only difference. The need for pupils do do research rather than have the school just serve it up to them is a skill that schools should be fostering.

But I agree that having good labs, with enough space and enough equipment, chemicals and other consumables for all pupils to carry out experiments themselves (more than once if needed) must make a huge difference

user1471450935 I am under no illusions state education is financially exceedingly strapped because of the policies of this government and that inevitably this will have a significant knock on effect on the quality of a child education. In most cases the independent sector is better resources in some cases the difference is between schools in the two sectors is not that obvious but as I’m sure you know in others the difference is absolutely vast. I actually think that many have no actual idea how big this difference is. I accept that morally it is wrong that my DS has had so many more opportunities that yours simply because we could afford to pay, that it’s unfrair and wrong that your DS might not do as well at his school (in terms of grades) than he might have done if he’d attended a school like Winchester. But I have never attempted to defend my decision on the ground of morals or fairness, quite simply he had a place at Winchester we liked everything it offered, believed in; a Renaissance education and luckily could afford it and I’m sorry to say user if I in the same position today I would do exactly the same thing. If as many on here would like independent schools were forced to close for whatever reason and schools like Winchester moved abroad which undoubtedly they would then I would have send my DS abroad to receive this type education. Putting aside excessive government interference and the fact that they state schools are increasingly poorly resourced I’m not anti state education per se or indeed the children who attend who I work with on a daily basis I just found something that suited me and my DS better and was in a position to afford it. I did feel uncomfortable about it, I work with children from deprived backgrounds and know what a difference a good education can make, but like most I put my child first. I know there are some on here who don’t do this and I genuinely take my hat off to them and admire their decision.

user1471450935, nowhere did I say that I would send my children abroad to avoid children like yours. I would send my children abroad because state schools here do not offer the kind of education I wish my children to have.

Sorry, I am back, between work. Please can I ask you to forget my comments on private schools. Good luck to every one's children, we need all children to reach their potential, where ever they go to school. We could never afford two children to go. I was moved to come on explain how difficult it is for kids in places that Lord Adonis identified in his poorly thought out plans. I was trying to explain to the users of private schools the reality of life for kids in these places. Our state comprehensive could not provide DS1 with a English teacher for all of years 10 and 6 months of year 11. So instead of the A/B he was working too, he scrapped a C. Maths similar, a C grade gained. So straight away his hopes to do chemical engineering died. The book comment wasn't about the personal work, school think he is brilliant and think the same of two girls in similar situation. But MORE THE FACT OUR SCHOOLS DON'T HAVE THE BOOKS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Sorry AnotherNewt are you really saying Eton, Winchester College and your child's London private don't have these resources at hand. There is a great difference from saying we have 50 books in the school library, go use them and then add your research to it. Then saying to a child sorry we have nothing, its up to you. Believe me he hasn't had any hand feeding from the school, he is working on it up till 2330 most nights, because his school sixth is still teaching parts of year 12 work now, instead of time for his assignment. Another thing, his UCAS application, with no one to help at home, was finally signed off by form tutor, head of sixth, then came back 24 hours later as school had given him wrong word count, so he had to cut out 150 words in 24 hours, bet that doesn't happen at Eton etc. That is just one child, there is 1800 at his school, so how many in all schools in these poorly achieving towns and cities identified by Lord Adonis. Plus widening access doesn't exist around us, Hull, Lincoln or CU Scarborough won't lower their offers to DC like mine. To join the police he needs A levels and many forces want degrees. If kids like my DS1 are failing to reach their potential where does Britain go, it has already lost a chemical engineer, due to schooling issues. My boys get £5000 spent on DS2 and around £4000 on DS1, if either fail it will become bloody expense paying out benefits to them for the next 70 years. SO IF LORD ADONIS IS WRONG TO TAX PRIVATE SCHOOLS, what do Dapple Happy and Another suggest, we as parents do everything we can for our boys, including paying for tutoring, but no one in the government seems to care, but if you and your kids have never used a state school, which sadly is a lot of present cabinet and certainly our local MP, why would you bother. But for 50 years we have been building up a time bomb and it may go off soon. Brexit, I didn't vote for and DC's campaigned against may be the first small ripple.

"Sorry AnotherNewt are you really saying Eton, Winchester College and your child's London private don't have these resources at hand."
Of course they have these resources to hand Im not going to patronise your intelligence by saying they don't or that they have to put in even 1.2 the effort your DS obviously does to find to research things.
SO IF LORD ADONIS IS WRONG TO TAX PRIVATE SCHOOLS, what do Dapple Happy and Another suggest?"
I personally think we're going to all have to pay more taxes, if we want these things, (obviously this money will have to be ring fenced which is. separate concern). But I also think that education will be in second position and quite a long way down in second position to our NHS and that sadly for you and many others that when the chips are down most will agree to paying more taxes for our totally collapsed NHS (its going to need a lot of money to even to begin to address its problems) but may baulk at the idea of paying more taxes for education.
I would happily pay extra taxes for both but if I had to choose between them then I want my money to go to the NHS partly because of my age and also because my late parents, my in laws and my DS2 have used it extensively so I know how important a free at the point of delivery health service is.

1/2 not 1.2.

Apologies for not being clearer about what i am trying to say. My sense from this thread is that those on here are not really wanting to take any responsibility for how all of our taxes are spent and to contribute to the debate about how we can all try to improve our state education for all. If we had great state schools everywhere many parents who have to save and scrape to give their children the education they think they deserve would instead send them to a local school, be part of that community and do all they could to ensure that the standards remained high. Our system means that quite undertandabllly when this is not available locally those who can afford it opt out as this is the only choice they think they have. Unless schools are properly funded they cannot provide the quality all children deserve. If they are properly funded they can - we are seeing this in London where for a period of proper investment the quality of schoosl increased massively but htere is now a danger that this will start declining. The government is just not listening. I send my DC to a state school - i could if i really scraped and saved every penny of what i earn and re-morgaged my house afford ot send her privately but I choose not to as I want her educated in the state system where i can try and influence and where she can walk to school, have local friends and be around children from a whole range of backgrounds. I want to help make her school as good as it possibly can be for her and for all the kids and by knowing what is really going on in a school like hers i can be a voice like User147 is being for better investment in schools and if that means higher taxation then i would support that. I do understand the choices parents make and i am not judging that but we have to all try and advocate for the right thing for all kids.