Private schools should be taxed at 25% to fund teachers for Blackpool says Lord Adonis

[noblegiraffe]

Private schools should be taxed at 25% to fund extra pay for teachers in hard-to-recruit areas like Grimsby or Blackpool says Lord Adonis. This £2.5 billion fund could also be used to fund tuition for those in danger of failing maths and English. I'm sure some people on here might have opinions on that?

And he doesn't think pupils should be expelled unless they've broken the law (not sure what he thinks they are currently expelled for but even breaking the law is often overlooked).

"He said whole towns and cities are affected, referring to reports of how doctors in Blackpool use the "Shit Life Syndrome" description.

"Deep poverty, pervasive drugs, obesity, anti-depressants and mental illness in a large isolated town exhibiting alarming signs of disintegration – including the largest encampment in Britain of children expelled from school.

"...For Blackpool today, read also Hull, Grimsby, large parts of the North and the Midlands, and large towns in the South, including Hastings, Dover and Folkestone.""

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/lord-adonis-calls-ban-expelling-pupils-unless-they-break-law

If possible I would like them to form A NATIONAL SCHOOLS BOARD which would be totally independent of any government what's so ever, by law

Unfortunately, different people have different views. You'd still not get consensus in some kind of independent umbrella organisation. The usual result is a lot of cost and expense with little to show for it. When you have different opinions, the end result is usually some wishy-washy "guidance" that's weasel worded so it means different things to different people, and the poor sods at the coal face who have to follow it's guidance are usually left clueless as to what they have to do because the words are so vague.

Excellent post happy. Agree with every word.

Just thought I would pop in and give the likes of ocsock and iseenodust an update on Ds1 university application. Thank you for your kind words earlier I missed them, SORRY.
Anyway on Wednesday, 20th, Ds1 UCAS application was finally submitted last thing by school. It's own deadline was the 11th of December, good job UCAS deadline is 15th January. Joys of a school rated Inadequate, so Ds1 was given wrong character count for his personal statement twice by school, leading to three rewrites of finalised statement, told to miss out certain UCAS point qualifications as RG/Oxbridge don't accept/count these, unfortunately Ds1 isn't applying to these and never will. THen they forgot to attach is form teacher's statement and then the Head of Sixth form forgot to sign it off and went on an improvement course for 3 days, he is only one who can sign them off. I think schools number might be added to our friends and favourites after this month.
Because of school/Ds1 issue in summer, which lead to the loss of one AS and therefore an A level, not too mention CAMHS involvement, Ds1 is right on the borderline of UCAS points requirement for all his choices of university, so we as parents where braced for no offers. That's why he left two blanks on his form for either lower tariff courses or an foundation course start.
Anyway he received an email from UCAS , yesterday teatime, saying check your tracker, He had received 2 offers.
There where no contextual offers, are these an mumsnet myth even though he attends one of the 2 worst schools in our county. Both universities want the same tariff points, gained slightly differently. But his second choice university put after original offer that if he firms them it will become unconditional. So we are waiting for third university to make an offer, 5 friends also waiting for offers from this one and Christmas to pass, then I think it will be a weekend visit to show his mum the university and the city it is located in, we have visited it before, and make sure Ds is happy to attend. He loved the university and the course lecturer on the open day and likes the city he thinks. But he is still recovering from CAMHS and we all just want to be sure it is right for him, he seems very happy though and was spending most of today doing Geography work/revision which is his weakest subject. He won the criminology quiz this week, even beating second year students, it's only an A/S for Ds1.
SO we has parents couldn't be happier or prouder, that he as kept on going against the odds life and school have thrown at him this last 18 months.
Good luck to all your children and a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everyone

Ace result... bet your DS will have a third solid offer by New Year. Take the favourite and then see how far he can upgrade (if he wants) when he has the final grades. Happy Christmas and a wonderful 2018. It has been a breath of fresh air communicating with a dad who is so wholeheartedly engaged in his childrens' successes. ANd I still think you have a future in politics!

user so happy for you and your DS1 on reading your update. The offer of an unconditional is brilliant. He loved the tour and the city and it sounds like they loved the look of him ! Hope you are having a fab family Christmas.

This has been a really interesting thread to read.

I work in a state school that has high levels of deprivation, and I choose to send my children to independent schools so see both sides of the fence.

I am often asked in RL what would need to change in the state school for me to choose it over independent.

From my experience - I appreciate this is my experience and I’m not saying all state schools are like this - it is not from a lack of resources.

There are a lot of things that impress me at the state school:

Every child has access to IT equipment - laptop, iPad etc and these are a maximum of 3 years old on a rolling programme.

The library is well stocked with new books, that are updated every year, and a full restock every 3 years.

The children are provided with all stationery and this is replenished every term.

There are qualified teachers in each class and there are support assistants enough for one in each class and 5 extras, but the support move around the school as required.

The issue I have with the state school, and I appreciate this is controversial, is the size (number of pupils and range of pupils), in my view where independents have their strength is they tend to be smaller not just in class size but overall and they tend to specialise in the type of pupil they accommodate for.

My children don’t go to the same schools because they have different strengths and weaknesses. The state schools by me seem to accommodate all but are ideal for none.

Happy recognises that WinCol is not for all boys, and that is true, but those that it is for thrive there.

In the past I have chosen the wrong fit for my children but another advantage of independent is it is easier to find an alternative and a very obviously different school where as the state option seems very samey in my area so when a child doesn’t fit no one feels like there’s an alternative for them to move to.

Therefore, if I had the ability to change the state system (I don’t but if Adonis can have his ideaology so can I), I would have a max limit of 840 for secondary school and 420 for primary school.

There was a time when schools were given science status or sports status or language status, but that doesn’t seem to mean a lot our language status school offers 2 languages when the sports school offers 4 languages! But I would have schools that were for those with excellence in sport, music, academic, (not all 3 in one school) but also those that specialised in learning disabilities, behavioural difficulties, also general schools for “middle of the road”.

This is what the independent sector offers, all the different options.

As an adult I have worked in different industries - in an office block of 2500 people, in a company with 4 people, and now in a school with 150 staff.

For me 2500 was too many, for 4 too few, 150 just right. Now someone else may prefer one of the other options but as an adult that is a choice we have. The states round me do not give options.

Interesting Edu I recently through work was quite invovoled in a localish state school. No child has access to IT equipment in fact most didn’t have enough text books to go round, in the independent sector parents often are as likely to provide laptop etc and many schools do as well, In comparison with the independent sector (Im talking big names I admit) the library is pathetic and unused, stationary is provided but teachers were buying glue and pens themselves fro their own money, lesson were frequently taught by staff in training on the schools direct program, or even worse IMO cover staff who are not qualified teachers, support staff were only in lesson where a particular child needs support. This is an average size comp in a large town with a mixture of fairly deprived and average areas.
I think this demonstrates how every school is different and you can’t make generalisations about either sector.

Every school is different, but the plan or desire appears to be to make every state school the same (and it appears to be in good effect where I am but I think that’s due to a strong willed local authority) but I don’t think same equates to best approach.

It isn't problem dc that are the issue near me. Lack of aspiration, from both schools and parents is the biggest problem. Not to mention mp's, council etc who clearly think any old shite will do for the working classes.

Last time we had canvassers round dd asked about education, and specifically why the only state option we realistically have is substandard. And why the only other possibility doesn't offer a full academic curriculum. With the facts as to why it is substandard, not just calling it crap. She didn't get a response about how they intended to improve it, in essence their view was that it is perfectly good enough for the peasants. No reply when dd asked why their dc attended the fantastic church school if the local one isn't in need of improvement. But despite that stance is anti private, even though it is their attitude that is the barrier to improvement

My child was the recipient of a less than satisfactory independent school experience. Part of that was the school not being bothered especially about core subjects and viewing beginning of the Prep years as all about independence and sport. Personally, I feel private schools should do SATs and follow the National Curriculum more closely.

At secondary level, 2 of the best independent schools hereabouts have classes of 24-26. My son's secondary school has 28, plus small groups in Maths and lab technicians (none of them in either independent school mentioned)

Private schools already save the state quite a lot of money. Each pupil in a private school is another that the state doesn't have to pay to educate. If you levy additional tax on those places, it will just mean fewer private schoool pupils and, overall, a greater burden on the state system.

Do none of our politicians have even a basic grasp of economics?

“Personally I feel that private schools should do SATs and follow the national curriculum more closely.”
Why? Some may choose a particular private school precisely because it doesn’t do SATs and they dont follow the national curriculum that closely. It is your choice. If you definitely want that then either choose one that does or stay in the state sector.
I prefer to call private schools independent because that it precisely what they are.

“At secondary level, 2 of the best independents hereabouts have classes of 24-26.”
The thing with the independent sector is that you can’t generalise, the biggest class my DS was in at his independent secondary class was 18, that was for math and they were in streamed according to ability. Apparently most classes were 14-15 smaller for MFL’s.
Independent schools vary considerably in so many ways, that is why you cannot always say they’re better or worse that the state sector. Those charging what is now pushing £40k+ a year with extensive facilities and resources are likely to be totally different from those charging £12k a year.

My son was in a Orep with a class of 16, the level of teacher interaction was rubbish, the empathy was zero. Aged 7 there was occasional TA cover. Total waste of money. Regulating private schools could help that if it ever happened.

If they had SATs, some private schools could waste less time on sport. Don’t get me wron sport is good but 3 afternoons per week is not good.

But master, you can always see what is happening at an independent school and choose to leave. As a parent you have a lot of choice.

State schools have more oversight because most parents are essentially forced to use them. They cannot "vote with their feet."

Why is 3 afternoons of sport not good?

The independents my children have attended do sport every day except Sunday,

Compulsory lessons 4 days a week - 3 1 hr lessons 1 2hr lesson
Matches for majority for one whole afternoon a week
Matches for minority Saturday afternoons

The compulsory lessons enable the children to get their daily fitness, enable proper progression and give them a break from academic studies.

But they can fit this in, because the compulsory school day is 8-5 not 8:30-3.

One of the biggest benefits for me is the fact they don't rigidly follow the curriculum. Granted good state schools/ teachers teach outside and beyond the curriculum to differentiate when required. But a school where you really only had a right to 'mastery and broadening' within the nc, and for anything else just hoping the teacher will choose to provide it, really wouldn't be any different to state.

Generally independents can do more within the same time frame, hence there is more time for sports/ extra curricular. The longer days tend to balance out the longer holidays.

Independent schools are selective so you have to fit their model to stay in the school. Yes, you can leave and find a better fit in or outside the independent school system.

I’d be the first to admit that the school my son was at wasn’t academic enough for him and wasn’t a good fit.

Our experience of the state system is that it fits itself around the pupils and personalities it has whist maintaining structure via the National Curriculum.

As regards sport. My son has been in the Rugby club at secondary school and done well in a number of different sports. It’s great and enjoyable but also nothing like the sport in the Prep school he was at. Inclusivity remained absent

Beware of schools that tell you they teach ‘new’ and innovate curriculum subjects. You might find they taught the same thing under a different name a few years back. All schools do that, my son’s current school call RE Theology, for example.

At the Prep school the curriculum was way off innovative. The kids long since left in Yr 11 recalled doing the same things in Yr 3 that their younger siblings were doing. The changing demands of SATs made that an impossibility in the primary school my son joined at Upper Key Stage 2.

“sone private schools could spend less time on sport”
Think you’ll find master this s what many are paying for. Many believe state schools focus on SATa at the expense of other things like sport etc they don’t want this. Many parents lelieve in a broad less test —obsessed— education offered by some preps which includes amongst sport three times a week. For preps going to 13+ SATs are a total waste of time, as the secondary schools they feed into are not interested.
My experience by the way was that the state sector was not academic enough for my super bright DS and therefore was a bad fit for him, at secondary we deliberately sought out and choose a school that did follow the national curriculum as we wanted a Renaissance education and I dont believe that that is what the national curriculum offers.
The important thing is that you are happy with your choice and we with ours paying may broadens your options but that doesn’t mean that an independent school is the right choice for you or your DC.

In comparison to many I have spoken to dd had an excellent experience in state primary. But, it was still limited because it came down to the school using the resources it had to the best of their ability to try and meet the needs of a dc the nc just wasn't designed with in mind. I'd definitely agree her school did its upmost to fit around the pupils and personalities, as do others, but I'd say that's despite the way the state system is designed, not because of it.

A school where the nc is something that is also covered in addition has far more freedom. Not to mention the teachers are free to teach, rather than adhering to whatever box ticking exercise is inflicted on them.

master you obviously had a bad experience in the independent sector. My DS (who’s now at university) didn’t his school didn’t teach a “new and innovative” curriculum they taught a curriculum that was underpinned by their ethos; education is about intellectual stimulation, learning for the sake of learning, the provision of a broad academic curriculum with a significant non examined curriculum. I believe in this Im delighted lesson time was taken up every day doing this, you may not, but that’s fine.
But what you should avoid doing is extrapolating from your experience and say this is what happens in all independent schools. I could say that because my DS’s intellectual needs weren’t met at his state primary school all state education is rubbish but I need to avoid doing this.
Every school in both sectors and every child is different, as parents we want and expect different things from education there is no right answer or one size fitting all. This is why Summerhill exists or Steiner Schools. I personally wouldn’t choose either but accept that some like what they offer and believe this is the right type of education for their child.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter providing you believe in you choice.

master, I would have to echo previous posters in saying that the reason I chose to educate my children in the independent sector is precisely because they do not do SATS and because of the amount of sport on offer and would be very unhappy if the independent sector had to be accountable to the same reporting that state schools are.

An independent schools' ISP is specified in its title - independent, and this means that the sector is very varied in the type of schools within it. It sounds like the school you experienced did not fit the educational goals and experience that you wished for your son. However, the key advantage for us who choose to educate our children privately is that we can take our children out and find a different school with a very different ethos. If you had chosen a different school, your experience would have most likely been different - you still might not have been happy with the product you purchased, but your complaints would probably be about different things.

I have two different children - both academic but with differing strengths and interests. They are at different schools which cater to their various strengths. Both children would be unhappy in the other's school but are very happy and thriving in their respective choices.

The ultimate luxury and privilege which I am paying for is the choice to educate my children in schools which suit them and fulfil the educational goals I have for them which are not the same goals as many other parents. I want lots of sport done to a high level. I want homework from the early years in primary school. I want good quality foreign languages preferably not just French. I want an international peer group for my children whose parents aspire for them to be educated abroad and a school administration who has experience in making this possible. I want good quality music and drama. I want loads of extracurricular activities to be provided within the school day. I don't want to waste time on incessant test prep and don't want any sort of teaching towards tests. I pay to be able to get these things.

“You have to balance it with ways of preventing house prices near good state schools soaring so that only the very rich could afford them. Or tax those houses too“

You can always use fair banding and/or lottery admissions systems as some oversubscribed schools in London are doing.