Best place to live in Kent for Grammar school

[vik2017]

Hi,
This is my first question on this board....
and I wanted to know which is the best place to live in Kent and falls into Grammar catchment area and also if my son dont get to the Grammar at least will go to a very good comprehensive school.
Any suggestion will be appreciated even suggest to move to another place considering we both work in London.

Many thanks in advance...
Viki

I am afraid of saying what i really think , because no doubt some posters would be outraged (mock) !

However, you can always tell which children are the grammar school ones which attend the other school .
Time and time again children from the other schools in town walk like they have got the worlds problems on their shoulders . They can also at times look quite intimidating.

However, It is almost impossible to differentiate between grammar and private school children (if you don't know the uniform).
This is because Soft Skills are acquired by children in all selective environments , not least the ability to walk straight up . They even get away from 'nicking' at Boots because of their blazer .

And I've seen countless people totally over prepare their children for the Kent test, because they get so incredibly stressed about it and lose confidence in their children's ability to cope, or panic because they have a bright child who doesn't work "quickly enough." And really, the national curriculum at primary level is not that difficult to master for bright children who read a lot at home - it does not take hours of homework and extra work a week to achieve, nor long lists of words to rote learn through fear that your child has not read enough books to have encountered them in an enjoyable way. The hours of extra work are bugger all to do with meeting the expected standard at the end of primary and being ready for secondary school and all to do with being so practised at exam technique that you can answer the questions in your sleep... which is all about the silly tests at the end of primary and not the journey along the way.

Whether maths papers, English papers or reasoning papers, parents are making their children go over the same ground endlessly until they are fast enough and accurate enough to beat off the competiton from other over-prepared children.

The system is atrocious, yes.

Blaming parents for it is hardly fair though. It all smacks a bit of “I’m better than you as I managed to escape and you’re all competitive fuckwits who don’t care about their children”

I grew up in Kent, and there is no way I’d now move there for schools and I went to one of hard to get into grammars. The pressure and the stress to get into the schools is huge and where I was although the alternatives now get good results, they certainly don’t offer the same opportunities. I’ve just checked and if I hadn’t got into the grammar, I would not have been able to do GCSE music and then I may not be in my current career. The tutoring that now happens is ridiculous.

@vik2017 I live nearish you, however rather than uprooting your family miles to take a punt on a grammar, you could move less than 10 miles away to places like Alton, Fleet or Hartley Witney where you have the choice of fantastic comprehensives. I consider myself exceptionally fortunate that when my DD gets to year 6, I can chose the school that best suits her and that she’ll have fantastic opportunities which are offered to all.

Who on earth says I'm blaming parents? Not everyone has the choice or ability to move out of Kent. I know my personality - if I lived there, I would lose confidence too and totally over-prepare my children and stress them out. For their own good, I'm therefore avoiding the county like the plague and wouldn't encourage anyone else to move there deliberately to join in with the ridiculousness of it all. I'm sure I'll be bad enough stressing them out about their GCSEs without having started on them at age 10! ps I have relatives who teach in grammar schools, have children in the Kent school system and who tutor for the 11 plus, so maybe I just know too much about it, rather than not enough!

“many parents in Kent do put a ridiculous amount of pressure on their children to practice for the Kent test”

It’s a bit disingenuous then to say that they are stupid tests that are pointless when they are covering national curriculum basics.

Sure some parents may over prepare children. Some parents don’t give a shit. Some parents pay tutors a fortune.

The system is divisive and creates many, many issues.

mountford100 I can't see any difference between my DCs primary school friends when they all get together for weekend meet ups (non selective, selective, ss & private).

BertrandRussell you might get your Christmas shopping cheap this year if you can get your DC to visit boots with their blazer on.

Well, sorry, but I think most of the questions in the reasoning papers are a bit silly. What use are they in real life? Yet children practice them endlessly. And short tests in English and maths don't tell you much about a child's real ability, only about how well prepared they are for a short test. In grammar schools, same as any other secondary school, teachers complain that once children get into year 7, their actual skills in spelling, punctuation, grammar and maths are considerably less secure than the impression given in the tests - once they are having to really use the skills on the daily basis. There's a big difference between being genuinely well read, eloquent and open to learning and being well prepared for a test, and the more time you spend on the latter, the less on the former.

I agree about the reasoning tests, and FWIW agree that the Maths & English tests are too short. But prepping for Maths and English has been a useful exercise for both my DC, neither of whom are bookworms.

I know before the English paper was introduced 3 years ago there were big issues with children bring admitted to SSs who were almost illiterate.

The problem is that interested (perhaps overly interested, pushy) parents want the best for their children and want guarantees of a great school and don't mind what consequence achieving that might have for other children.

Many parents want to have the option of a Grammar for their child and hope their child will be clever enough to get into one (and don't concern themselves about the children who then 'fail' and have to go to a school without the top 25% or whatever of ability and the stigma for 5 years of being in the school that you have to go to when you aren't good enough for the Grammar) but also want to avoid the non-selective option in Grammar areas, and have a great Comp option if they aren't capable of passing or don't pass the Grammar test.

In most places it's just not possible to have the positives of the Grmmar system without the negatives too.....and even if it's possible for an individual family, it's not possible for the whole area. Sometimes canny families live near the border - they can get into a Grammar if they pass because ey live in the County, but if they fail they can get into the Comps in a nearby COunty on distance criteria, avoiding the secondary moderns. However, those secondary moderns do still exist (whatever people want to call them) and although some are good, lots are not good....but if you have Grammars, some children (the majority) will have to go to them.

The OP is looking for the best option and also to hedge her bets and avoid the worst options. If you like, it's a bit like the 'prisoners dilemma' where in the end, rationale people faced with uncertainty, go for the second best, but guaranteed option - that's a good comprehensive school.

There are lots of good comprehensives who do well for their able students, but also do well for the more middling or less able students too. People forget to look at the data for the ability level of their children and instead just look at overall school performance and decide schools aren't good enough. Yes, there are lots of not so good Comprehensives too and like the Sec Mods, lots of kids have to go to them, which isn't fair or right.

OP understandably wants a good school for her children. Kent has got lots of good schools, but there are also downsides of the Grammar system in terms of the process to get in and the less good education that lots (not all) children get in the non-selective schools which don't have the full ability range - they simply are not Comprehensives. In my view, unless you live there already, unless you are happy to pay as an alternative for school and unless you are prepared to accept a secondary modern education, Kent isn't the place to go to live, because there are loads of other places with good schools where the downsides of Kent can be avoided.

I'm glad it's been useful for your kids, Taffeta. I can see that if your children don't actively read for pleasure, a certain amount of tutoring towards an end goal can help to motivate them.

“ VR and NVR can easily be covered over the summer holidays for a bright child.” For a bright child with parents who have and are prepared to spend the time, and the money, to work through the various practice books. For the bright child with a parent who is capable and has to confidence to ‘cover ‘ VR and NVR with their child.

Hence divisive.

Yes divisive.
But actually that's what lots of people want. They want their kids to go to the school with the other children whose parents could afford a tutor or who had the ability and confidence to spend the summer prepping them for the test.
The reason people move for schools is to get to the kind of schools with families like their own and to avoid the full range of families. It happens with people moving for Grammars and for successful Comps too.
Grammars hit the poor especially hard. Most Comprehensives include at least some poorer areas, so there's a chance of getting in. However, increasingly Grammar places go to those who aren't just bright, but well-prepared and being well-prepared is an indication of affluence. Poorer children don't get the prep and so are less likely to get in....plus if they live in full Grammar counties like Kent are also more likely to live in the poorer areas, which is where the Sec Modern non selective schools are likely to be the worst performing of all, rather than in the more affluent areas where the non selective sec moderns can still do well becaue of the number if interested parents.

Certainly divisive, but people want to escape integration.

@ChocolateWombat: I am bit confused from what you said, are you not in favour of grammar or you are not in favour of Kent. I mean instead of Kent if I move to Bexley for the same purpose Grammar>good comp>or independent..will you again be reluctant to this....I am just trying to understand extract of your statement...

Thanks

Chocolate, a further factor affecting admission to grammars from deprived areas is that these may be served by poorer-performing primaries (partly because the very fact of having a very deprived catchment brings a whole host of social challenges that the school has to deal with as well as education). Therefore as well as not being able to be tutored, the children may also not have as good a primary school grounding in preparation for the 11+.

However, as you say, what many grammar supporter are seeking is exactly this separation of 'sheep' and 'goats' - they actively want to ensure that their children are separated from children from more deprived backgrounds with less motivated parents...

This is sometimes expressed as 'my child needs like-minded fellow pupils to reach their full potential' or 'my child will be held back if they are in a school with a mixed ability intake [even if the school sets thoroughly for 90% of the subjects]'.

Vik, I'm just stating facts really - that people look to benefit their own children (understandably) and that in the process, the systems which benefit the affluent often hurt the less affluent.

I know lots of parents with children in Kent Grammars whose kids are having a fantastic time and doing really well. It's worked for them. I also know a couple too who haven't got in. One family found the idea that their kid hadn't passed really difficult and although the non-selective they go to is good (affluent area) they are still disappointed 3 years on and talk about Grammar a lot for 6th Form. The other ones who didn't qualify are in a less affluent area and the school isn't all that good - but actually they don't seem so bothered about it all. In a Comprehensive area, no-one (children or parents) feels they have failed or are at the lesser type of school.

Having seen the stress caused by parents prepping and getting tutors too, I also think there has to be a better way.

So, thinking about society overall I think I am anti Grmmar and anti the Kent system, although I know it benefits some people...its just that there's too many it doesn't benefit for it to be a good system in my view.

As i always say on these threads, there are a very small number of children - of the 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10,000 level of ability - who may not efficiently be able to be educated in a mixed ability mainstream comprehensive for all subjects.

For the even fewer who are of that level of ability across the whole curriculum, a very small number of 'Special Schools', with admission by the usual route of EHCP / Statements, would be sensible. For the majority of that very small number of very high ability students, specific arrangements - I have known online courses, often university level or from classes much further up the same school work effectively - can be made for one or two subjects in which they have a statistically unusual level of ability.

Special Schools at the other extreme of the ability range are also necessary, party IME because of the need for specialist equipment and staff in caring for and educating such young people.

For everyone in the middle 99%+ of ability, a full; spectrum comprehensive is an entirely sensible and efficient way forward. The best comprehensives (for a given intake) sharing practice with poorer performing comprehensives (with very similar intakes - we have to match apples with apples) is a much more sensible way forward than creating, expanding or retaining grammar schools.

cantkeepawayforever I think a lot of pro grammars spend very little time thinking past what they want for their DC and how to get it.

I'm not convinced they think for one minute about whether their DC may be mixing with undesirables, they are more focused on getting their DC into which ever school has the highest %A*/L9 and Oxbridge destinations.

I find a lot of parents don't put much thought into why a certain school gets better results than others. They simply seem to assume that if their DC goes to that school, they will get those results.

That is incredibly depressing, but probably true, Mumtrying

I think it is even more depressing that they probably think it gets those results because it is a better school..

they probably think it gets those results because it is a better school..

Well the results can't possibly be down to the parents whipping their cheque books out the minute they think their DC may not get the top grades, or is lacking confidence and needs a little boost to help them along (not knocking tutoring BTW, just the fact that parents are then chasing after those schools who are having their results boosted through external interventions).

Let’s be honest the Grammar schools get the results because they are full of children ,who in the main , want to learn , have supportive parents etc . The facilities in the non Grammars are just as good , the teachers are just as good but unfortunately the classrooms are disrupted by some children who don’t want to be there , don’t want to learn and unfortunately some of whom have parents that basically don’t give a shit . Not something people want to hear but unfortunately it is true . Those that don’t get to grammar and want to do well can do so but it’s harder because the teachers in those school schools have to spend a lot more time doing behaviour management than those in the Grammars on the whole . There you go , I’ve said it and I’m sure loads of people will disagree however in my experience having lived in Kent since I started school , had 2 children at school in Kent , having a wide variety of friends with children at school in Kent and knowing several teachers that is the bottom line .

Those that don’t get to grammar and want to do well can do so but it’s harder

I imagine having a diminished peer group due to others opted for the Grammar Schools doesn't help either.