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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Best place to live in Kent for Grammar school

750 replies

vik2017 · 30/10/2017 15:31

Hi,
This is my first question on this board....Smile
and I wanted to know which is the best place to live in Kent and falls into Grammar catchment area and also if my son dont get to the Grammar at least will go to a very good comprehensive school.
Any suggestion will be appreciated even suggest to move to another place considering we both work in London.

Many thanks in advance...
Viki

OP posts:
ChocolateWombat · 04/11/2017 10:11

Mountdord, Bucks requires 121 which is a standardised score not a raw score. It isn't the actual mark and the marks are standardised so that the same percentage achieve 121 each year. All 11+ scores are standardised so recognise the varying difficulty of papers over the years, age of candidates and to ensure the right number get a pass.
An additional 5% get in on appeal.

mountford100 · 04/11/2017 10:15

The Op seems to be confirming what I said earlier - one of the reasons why people lie Grammars is because they are socially divisive. The OP would consider Kent because if her kids get into a Grammar, she thinks they will avoid the disruptive elements which are found in schools which have a wider social and ability mix.
To be honest, this will be a motivation for most people choosing Grammars, even if they don't say it.

This comes down to the use of ' Agency ' and applying rational choice theory. This imagines it to be rational to stay with what you know , and thus educated with 'people like us'.

CamperVamp · 04/11/2017 10:29

ChocolateWombat: I agree with you.

And I think that the behaviour of parents doing exactly what you describe: manouvering into ‘socially acceptable’ comps actually contributes to a polarisation of the schools and a spiralling exacerbation of the divide between ‘acceptable ‘ and ‘rough ‘ comps.

In London where population and schools are both dense, there are many schools which are actually very good schools: managing behaviour, Good Progress 8 and results which are v good if you take the cohort into account. However they are swerved by middle class parents.

In this situation / area If everyone sent their kids to the nearest school, all these there would be a critical mass of all kinds of kids: a critical mass of top sets, an average rather than high number of disrupters, more easily managed, and so on.

And crucially, this would benefit the diligent, achieving, middle sets. Those who wouldn’t quite make grammar but are working towards good results.

‘Our’ school is a right old mix, not as jostled for as the m/c comps a couple of miles either side, it has wealthy kids, a big area of troubled estates within catchment and some kids in gangs, high % FSM, high % high attainers. Great results for all bands if kids, great SEN support. It can be done. HOWEVER it is in an area that is often dismissed on MN as a terrible area to live (rough, crime ridden etc, none of which is actually true).

MumTryingHerBest · 04/11/2017 10:43

mountford100 In theory Bucks for instance could have 100% of students in grammar schools if every pupil scored '121' or more !

No they can't. Scores are standardised scores not raw scores. Only X% can get 121.

However, looking at the figures Bucks sends '36%'

it has hovered around the 25% qualification mark for those actually living in Bucks for some years, from what I understand (happy for you to correct me on this if that is not the case though).

Those 36% that qualify will also include OOC, X% will not be allocated a Grammar place as they live too far away to make the distance cut off (again happy to stand corrected on this).

www.buckscc.gov.uk/media/1337/transfer-test-location-analysis-2017-entry-intial-analysis-oct-2016.pdf

Clavinova · 04/11/2017 11:42

Several posters have suggested alternative Hampshire towns such as Fleet, Alton and Petersfield.

Court Moor in Fleet looks good at first glance (40% high attainers + above average Progress 8) but their EBacc percentage is much lower than you might expect and are they 'gaming' the system with 142 entries for the ECDL qualification?
www.court-moor.hants.sch.uk/192/exam-results

Calthorpe in Fleet has 50% high attainers but below average Progress 8.

Eggar's in Alton is rated outstanding but has below average Progress 8 this year.

We have already read that parents Alresford prefer to send their dc to Winchester schools rather than Perins.

If the op wishes to remain in Hampshire, she will have to consider her move carefully.

vik2017 · 04/11/2017 11:53

@ChocolateWombat
@CamperVamp
@Taffeta
This is the point I am trying to make that classmates and their behaviour does matter because it is quite hard to concentrate on studies when class is mostly disruptive. I am not generalising all the comps but percentage is definitely more than grammars....

OP posts:
roundaboutthetown · 04/11/2017 11:57

vik - just send your children to private school if you're that paranoid about disrupted lessons. In the general hierarchy, reassuringly expensive private schools find it easiest to get rid of the disruptive children altogether.

cantkeepawayforever · 04/11/2017 12:09

The other point to note is that it is not inevitable that comprehensive / mixed ability = disrupted lessons.

For one thing, virtually all comprehensives set by ability for some or all subjects - often Maths from the beginning, then other subjects progressively. A high ability (grammar ability) child in higher sets will be in exactly the same peer group for setted lessons as they would have been in in a grammar, just in the same building as those of other abilities.

For another, behaviour management in mixed ability schools is often excellent. In mixed ability lessons - drama, for example, is rarely setted, Art is usually only setted for GCSE and above - the small minority of the mixed ability group who MIGHT be disruptive is so heavily diluted, and so carefully managed, that the learning of others is not disrupted.

If your child is not grammar ability and thuis would be in the lowest sets of a comprehensive, then behaviour MIGHT be of concern, because these tend to concentrate the children with greater difficulty - poor attainment can often be linked to e.g. disrupted home life, specific SEN, poor nutrition and lack of sleep etc - together, and disruptive behaviour, though by no means inevitable in well-managed schools, may be less good than desired in some schools.

However, you seem convinced that your child will go to the grammar rather than any alternative school, so if your child is of that ability, then in the vast majority of good comprehensives [not all comprehensives are good, but that is not because they are comprehensive, it is either because they are not well manged schools or, possibly more commonly, because they serve catchments with a large proportion of families experiencing difficulty and / or with little regard for education], they will be fine.

roundaboutthetown · 04/11/2017 12:21

cantkeepawayforever - no point in pointing that out to the OP, as she is fixated on the idea that children can concentrate better in grammar schools and that actually the majority of children in comprehensives are disruptive louts. Grin

Clavinova · 04/11/2017 12:26

cantkeepawayforever

It was a classic case of the parent seeing the overall results of the school and believing that their child would automatically get those results
Surely the parent and the school knew well before Year 11 that the child was heading for a U grade at GCSE - did he not turn up for end of year exams in Years 9 and 10?

You obviously haven't read the 'tales of woe' from two Hampshire Mumsnetters spanning months/several years then?

Child A - a boy in well regarded Hampshire comp. Parents expecting A levels and RG uni, but ds underperforms at GCSE through lack of revision - scrapes onto A level courses at Hampshire sixth form, then flunks AS year and has to restart Year 12 with B Techs.

Child B - a girl in a good Hampshire comp. Lower middle ability child does very well (for her) at GCSEs - goes to non-selective Hampshire sixth form that takes all-comers - meets lower aspirational boyfriend - wants to set up home with him and have a baby at age 18 and presumably live on benefits/low income. Mother previously indicated that they could afford private education, but why would they bother when Hampshire schools and sixth forms are so good? I would be kicking myself that I hadn't sent her to a nice, non posh, non-selective, private girls' school (several near me) that cater very well for slightly naïve, all ability girls up to age 18.

roundaboutthetown · 04/11/2017 12:30

I know a couple of girls who went to nice, non-selective private schools and still managed to find themselves inappropriate boyfriends, take drugs, get pregnant in their teens and fail their exams. Their parents are wondering why they bothered spending all that money on their education. Some people really stuff up in their teens - who knew?

ChocolateWombat · 04/11/2017 12:31

The remaining issue why people 'swerve' Comps in less affluent areas, or Comos altogether in favour of Grammars, is that you cannot guarantee avoiding the disruptive element.
It is currently fashionable to do away with setting. There is some educational research which suggests it doesn't help, particularly the lower ability groups. A number of schools are reducing the amount if subjects being set or delaying doing it until later. My cynical head says its to save money during funding cuts but it helps that there's some research to justify it. This kind of thing makes the sharp elbowed parent even more jittery about Comps, even the good ones.

I agree that many Comps now have some great behaviour policies and their zero tolerance approach is paying off. However low level disruption or the threat of it is never far away. Quite simply, in selective schools, there is less of it.

Parents choose schools based on results....and it's true that able kids can do just As well in Comps. However parents also look at behaviour and the cohort and believe that a more mixed background cohort might disrupt their child's education and make them less likely to get the food results, plus most importantly perhaps, decide they want their children to have a more positive and less disrupted experience of school - and that is more likely in a selective school, or if only Comps are available, in a Comp with less social diversity.

It might be the elephant in the room and it might be unpalatable and we might all like to say that all children should equal opportunities for good education and all children should have access to the same schools and really believe it......but most of us don't want our own children to be affected by disruption.....and with the best will in the world and the best systems in place, schools which have large numbers of children from more difficult backgrounds with more challenging behaviour, the experience won't be the same as if those children aren't there.

In reality, people aren't very progressive and liberal and socially inclusive when it comes to the schooling if their children. Having some choice, rather than having to go to your local school has led to lots of 'swerving' to Grammars, to Church schools, to leafy Comps, to independents.....anything to avoid the disruption which can exist. And I don't see it changing anytime soon, or anyone on these threads not doing a bit of swerving themselves. Anti private and anti grammar and anti faith school people sometimes find their principles aren't as strong as they thought and send their kids to the mentioned schools. Others with stronger principles still find they can send their children across town and pay for the bus or to drive them,mrather than go to the local sink school - very very few people really want social inclusivity.

The only ones I've ever seen really go for it were a Church who were looking to really integrate into the local community and make a difference. They didn't just drive in from the suburbs to 'do good' but people moved onto the estates and sent their children to the local schools. It was an impressive sign of principles in action, but it's very rare.

cantkeepawayforever · 04/11/2017 12:32

Clavinova,

Had the child been allowed to sit their GCSEs at their original (Grammar) school, they would probably have got either a D or a C (their target grade). However, because the school was terrified that the child in question would affect their 'passing English' statistics, because they were on that D/C borderline, they manufactured a reason to get rid of them midway through Year 11, fobbing them off to a different exam centre. Child demotivated, angry, bewildered and depressed, flunks exam horribly - which is understandable.

What the parent (not educationally savvy) hadn't realised was that the school didn't 'automatically' get students to high grades - and in fact that almost all the pupils who got high grades in English were tutored, because the parents realised in Y10 that their child wasn't going to do well.

Clavinova · 04/11/2017 12:32

roundaboutthetown
My anecdote is from 2017 though.

Clavinova · 04/11/2017 12:35

cantkeepawayforever
Some top, super-selective grammar schools that I've looked at have to odd D, E and F grade on their GCSE results page and not many grammar schools have 100% (if any) A*-C.

roundaboutthetown · 04/11/2017 12:36

And your point is what, Clavinova? That privately educated children no longer fuck up?!

Clavinova · 04/11/2017 12:38

cantkeepawayforever
they manufactured a reason to get rid of them midway through Year 11
Perhaps he was expelled for other reasons and your friend doesn't want to say?

roundaboutthetown · 04/11/2017 12:40

If the OP wants to remove all risk of disruptive classmates from her child's life, she should home educate. If she wants to minimise the risk and has a child who has no reason to become that disruptive element themselves (eg no hint of a learning disability, no unexpected, traumatic events coming up, no tendency towards wilful disobedience...), then she should go for a reputable, oversubscribed, expensive private school. Simples.

Clavinova · 04/11/2017 12:43

And your point is what, Clavinova? That privately educated children no longer fuck up?!

My point is that my anecdotes are from two disappointed Hampshire parents posting on this forum in 2017 - not 30 years ago. I was responding to cantkeepawayforever's anecdote as to why the op shouldn't send her ds to grammar school. You may point out that anecdotes are not really relevant, except to the individuals concerned.

roundaboutthetown · 04/11/2017 12:44

And of course all parents want to be able to keep their children safe from disruptive influences. I wouldn't take my children to a favela in Rio. However, I think avoiding all comprehensive schools, or fully comprehensive parts of the country, is being a bit paranoid. Especially if you have the cash to pay your way out of it if you decide you don't like it!

cantkeepawayforever · 04/11/2017 12:45

Clavinova, genuinely, no - circumstances outing, though, so can't specify further.

cantkeepawayforever · 04/11/2017 12:53

I am not in any way suggesting that the OP should not send their child to a grammar because of my anecdote.

The original reason for presenting it was to point out the unreliability of the 11+ for selection of 'genuine ability'.

It also illustrates the point that, as the OP seems blind to anything but headline results, that sometimes (as has come out in the St Olave's case also), schools maintain their good 'headline results' at some cost to individual pupils.

In a particular individual's 'micro circumstances', a grammar school may be the best, or only available, option - Bertrand is an example of a poster who, with only a secondary modern or a grammar available through living in Kent, ended up with one child attending each school type, despite WANTING to send both to a comprehensive. No comprehensive existed for her to send her children to.

However, moving to a new area where there is a grammar school, because 'grammar schools are better' is misguided, because that statement is untrue. 'Grammar schools get higher raw results than secondary modern schools or comprehensives serving the same type of area' IS true, but that doesn't mean that individual children do any better in grammar schools than they would do in a fully comprehensive school.

mountford100 · 04/11/2017 12:53

Thanks for correcting me regarding how Bucks calculates a '121' score.

However, the percentages of pupils at grammar school relates to how many children are presently living in the Local Authority.

www.kent.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/58680/Grammar-Schools-and-Social-Mobility-June-2016.pdf

Page 80 of this report. showing LA % admitted to grammar schools.

For instance it suggests Kent has 28.4% of its pupils at grammar school not 26% as widely believed Trafford has 38.6 % of its pupils who live in the LA at grammar schools.

Interestingly Lincolnshire on has 22.7% of its pupils educated in its grammar schools.

Bearing in mind Bucks/Trafford are regarded as having among the best 'non selective' schools in fully selective areas and Lincs and Kent the poorest.

Is their some correlation between having a higher % of pupils admitted to grammar and relative success for the non selective schools.

ChocolateWombat · 04/11/2017 12:54

You're right that avoiding all Comps is paranoia. However, most people will be keen to avoid maybe one school - so avoiding schools is fairly common place. It's true that some people take it to extremes. Some will move a whole family to get a Grammarnplace or make their child travel over an hour each way, going past very good schools to gets a Grammar or certain Comp....it's all a matter of degrees.

OP is willing to take drastic steps that not everyone else will or view as necessary. She's hoping to gain certainty in the process,mbut the thing with Grammars is that there is no certainty.

BertrandRussell · 04/11/2017 12:54

Dismissing an entire sector because of a couple of anecdotes is a bit daft. I know a lot of people with teenagers in all sorts of schools and I could probably offer anecdotes of failure and success from all sectors.

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