It is really feasible to do 4 "hard" A levels?

[Kazzyhoward]

DS is forecast grades 8 and 9 in his GCSEs across the board. He is wanting to take all 3 sciences and Maths at A level. These are the subjects he enjoys. At this stage (argh!), he has no clue about what career he wants to go into! School/teachers seem happy enough to let him do them with the usual warnings of them being hard subjects etc. Just wondering if any parents/teachers have experience of kids doing these 4 A levels and whether it's realistically feasible to get decent passes. My personal view is to run for the hills and choose just 3 A levels of a different mix, maybe one science, Maths, and a humanity or economics/business studies, but perhaps that would do him a great dis-service. Very difficult when he hasn't a clue about career nor what degree subject he'll take at uni.

"They start driving, drinking, going out, partying, clubbing, having relationships etc."

Driving - not yet. DD has only just turned 17
Going out - occasionally
Drinking - no, she won't be 18 until she leaves school. She won't even be able to legally drink at year 13 prom
Partying - occasionally
Clubbing - no, she hates it

I agree though. Life gets much more interesting at that age.

5 A levels !!! . DD's school wouldn't be able to fit that many subjects into the curriculum. And why 5?

At the university/med school open days we went to this year they stated that there was absolutely no point in taking more than 3 as they won't even look at them all. They even said that if one of the results was lower it would go against the student. All they want is 3 good A levels. I got the impression that universities think that schools are overdoing the quantity at the expense of quality.

The med schools even said that they don't even pay much attention to personal statements. All they want is 3 A levels - minimum 3 As, a high UKCAT score and volunteering experience. Then the tough interview process.

Are things different this year? Is it because the A levels are linear now?

And 7 in one family to Oxford? Still just an everyday story of country folk?

Of course Mumsnet education discussions should be welcoming and representative of parents with children of all abilities. It's pretending to be something you're not that's the issue. And which can be misleading. Be open and proud of your exceptional children. Why wouldn't you be?

And incidentally, no I don't know anything else about them- but if they have faced significant challenges in other areas of their lives that makes them more exceptional, not less!

Perfectly reasonable combination. If well taught at school, there's no reason why he can't get top grades in those four.

A more sensible thing would be if the maths takes off, add further maths and eliminate biology. If he wants to do science or engineering, further maths is very helpful indeed at university. Biology less so! It's not even essential to do biology for medicine.

@LoniceraJaponica - 4 is usual at my school, 5 common (for Further Mathematicians), more is not unheard of (can't give specific details as would be outing but think students with more A* at A Level than the vast majority get at GCSE! How do they find the time? I'm not sure to be honest. However, years ago I taught a student who self-taught Physics A Level as an extra (having decided last minute to do Eng Lit). He did it as he wasn't very good at being alone with his thoughts. He needed to be busy (a perfectionist as well). He was an exceptional student as he was brilliant at pretty much everything. I suspect many of the students with lots of A Levels are similar.
Regardless, I suspect we will see less of this with the changes to A Level. For example, Creative Writing is disappearing as Gove disapproved of the 60% coursework and to be a course worthy of the name it should be portfolio based rather than exam and that isn't going to happen in the current climate. The change to AS levels also makes it more risky (although in my own subject that change isn't massive I know it's a major change to many others).

The unis we have looked at want biology.

DS1 did English Maths History and French A levels at local state grammar, he enjoyed history but was not happy with the standard of teaching so kept on with his French to be sure he got 3 really good A levels, he got 4 A's (in the years before A came in) He was a real grafter and even worked in Tesco Saturday and Sunday when he was in the 6th form. DS2 did English, History, Latin and Art the school didn't offer Latin but his French teacher offered to take a small group. He needed Art for his degree. He got AACB The two A's were needed for uni, the art at no less than a B for uni too, the Latin was just out of interest. He worked weekends too. They were both quite disciplined individuals who did their essays etc. when ;required, rather than procrastinate, neither of them found it particularly arduous though DS2 found the art took up a lot of his time.

My son is halfway his A levels , he is doing Maths (with mechanics) Computer Studies, Physics and Chemistry. He is managing to juggle them all fine. The 6th form he is at don't do AS Levels as a rule (although they have put them through AS maths just to see where they are) So if he is organised, and enjoys the subjects, he should be OK.

" in the days before A* came in"

My children were not particularly exceptional, they each had several friends who did 4 A levels and got good grades. It is not just about university entrance, sometimes they really want to carry on with a subject but need another for their course. I was proud enough that DS1 got to Oxford, having 7 is a fantastic achievement for one family and very relevant to everyone else as there must be a plan that works as well as raw ability. DS2 did a subject you can only do at a few universities, not including Oxbridge.

As a contrast to all the 'My kids did 10 A-levels and it was fine', I did 6 (inc Gen Studies, which I do include because I got an A ) and it was shit. I enjoyed all the subjects individually, and couldn't decide which to take so I did them all. Then I got trapped with the idea that giving up anything would be admitting failure and letting teachers down, and really things weren't that bad. I met homework deadlines, had friends, a boyfriend, went out on a Friday night, got my driving licence but my timetable was packed, including lunchtimes and I worked pretty solidly every evening and was constantly consumed with schoolwork with no time to myself.
To an outsider, I'd have looked fine. Teachers never said anything. But mentally it wasn't ok and I had a horrible two years. Even though my final results were good, it wasn't worth it.

noblegiraffe - as a maths teacher what would your opinion be on self-studying further maths as a 4th A level?

Further maths as a 4th A-level is reasonable, because someone who is bright enough to do Further maths will generally not see as much workload generated from Maths A-level.

It is a very difficult course though, a full A-level in terms of workload (those who see it as half an A-level have it the wrong way around, for the kids who take it, it would be Maths that would be the 'half'). Unless the student is a truly exceptional mathematician, they will need help with it. If self-study is being considered because the school don't offer it, then support is available. The Further Maths Support Programme can help arrange tuition at another college, or online. furthermaths.org.uk/study_fm

Bert I'll characterize my DC as I wish and I do so accurately. I've come across plenty of quite extraordinarily exceptional people in my life and I'm not going to waste my time or others' on MN by lauding my relatively bright DC. I will however make comments based on my own experience of their path through education, as I take a fairly common sense view which has helped others on these threads reasonably regularly, judging by the return comments I get. Others' advice has helped me and I'm glad to share my experience similarly. Not complicated. What interests me is that you still insist that very close monitoring of your DCs school life is the way to go and my wisdom thus far is that exactly the opposite is true - the DC say that I'm the most laid back parent amongst their peer group that they know in relation to school - pause for thought there?

Bertrand - wasn't having a pop at you - really not

This is something on my mind - if you and Goodbye could possibly bung over to my thread I would appreciate thoughts .

Otherwise will have to fall back on to flight radar - ever thus .....

Goodbye , Bertrand and Needmore & others - just realised I posted in Higher Education not here. Would appreciate thoughts from anyone re my post. Ha ha - how needy is that ( but a serious question)

goodbystranger you must accept that having 7 very bright children is the exception, not the norm, and you should be very proud of them, and there is nothing wrong with that. It is a little disingenuous to think that most A level students are as bright as yours though.

DD's school were really excited that 4 of their students got into Oxbridge a couple of years ago. This is because it just isn't the norm at her school, which happens to be a rather good, but bog standard comprehensive. I will find out next week if anyone has been accepted this year, and it isn't that the school doesn't encourage bright students to aspire to Oxbridge and high ranking Russell Group universities.

Personally, I think it's far better for DC to start 4 A levels, with a view to dropping one ( or not) at the end of Y12.

It retains options. It provides a rounder education at a still tender age.

But sixth forms have been starved of funding. They can't afford to offer 4.

Some are choosing to package it as A Good Thing, but that's bollocks IMVHO.

Having a family my size is the exception Lonicera, so we're already in unusual territory. There are plenty of sibling clusters at Oxfrod and Cambridge, so in that respect it's not vastly unusual.

In the context of a thread about four A2 as opposed to three A2 then my DC experience is entirely relevant and has bugger all to do with disingenuity. My point is that whether it's a good idea and manageable alongside all the other things of a 17/18yr old's life is to do with temperament, not school (except at the extremes of provision) or brilliance.

Not Oxfrod.

Of course it has to do with brilliance

A kid who is weaker needs to spend more time at their study even just to pass an A-level.

Whilst ability is clearly an issue, temperament and attitude are also a factor.

Some students are ruthlessly efficient, others kick the arse out of each and every task.

Teaching style is also a factor. Some teachers stick closely to the program, others ski wildly off piste.

I think it is a combination of temperament and brilliance (and good health). I know some really clever but lazy people.

I agree with noblegiraffe that many, if not most, children have to work hard to achieve good results. DD didn't get such good GCSE results without hard work.

I also agree that starting 4 is a good idea, as initially DD really wanted to take psychology to A2, but quickly realised that it wasn't for her. The other students only doing three A levels haven't got the luxury of dropping it as she has done.

noble when you're in the realms of four as opposed to three A2 you're not in the realms of the very weak student. Another red herring.

goodbye given that I've taught kids this year doing 4 who are certainly not what I would call strong candidates in my subject and who have needed additional support to pass, I would suggest that you don't know as much about this as you might think.

And they're not called A2s anymore...