It is really feasible to do 4 "hard" A levels?

[Kazzyhoward]

DS is forecast grades 8 and 9 in his GCSEs across the board. He is wanting to take all 3 sciences and Maths at A level. These are the subjects he enjoys. At this stage (argh!), he has no clue about what career he wants to go into! School/teachers seem happy enough to let him do them with the usual warnings of them being hard subjects etc. Just wondering if any parents/teachers have experience of kids doing these 4 A levels and whether it's realistically feasible to get decent passes. My personal view is to run for the hills and choose just 3 A levels of a different mix, maybe one science, Maths, and a humanity or economics/business studies, but perhaps that would do him a great dis-service. Very difficult when he hasn't a clue about career nor what degree subject he'll take at uni.

"noble you may possibly be generalizing from the maths particular since in the vast majority of subjects, with the greatest of respect, they are not co-teachable in the proper sense of the word."

In what way? DD took AS level exams this year and will continue with the A level courses in September. Are you saying that the subject matter she learned this year will not be examined next year? You are confusing me.

@goodbyestranger Noble is right. They are theoretically co-teachable. Easily done in my subject with the board we chose. I do know that some subjects (my 'minor' subject of RS for instance) it was difficult to manage the content in the time but it has proved possible. I know many subjects are relieved that we are dropping AS (it gives the gift of time - internal exam period will not be as long as external). For my subject it has meant we can teach the papers in a more logical way and divide the teaching and coursework marking more fairly.

Donna I know what you're saying but I've already raised the issue of teaching time which you now mention yourself. Yes, absolutely. The AS specs are not co-teachable in the same way as the previous AS. The design of the papers in most subjects mean that it's not an efficient use of teaching time to do an AS and the A Level in the same subject. The tendency of schools to do that was/ is simply trying to keep as closely to the old format as possible but isn't what the new papers are designed for. I think we're in complete agreement it's just that it's taking times for all schools to go down that route, mostly for fear of the unknown/ uni reaction - but that's now becoming apparent.

Error

"Also I read that AS will typically be regarded as 40% of an A2 in the new system, something I read in UCAS while trying to understand the new points system"

Just to confuse matters further, the EPQ is still worth 50% of an A level in terms of UCAS points.

All 3 of my subjects are co-teachable between AS and A level. As others have said, fitting it all in is an issue, but you can have students do both. These are humanities subjects.

eirrar of course it's technically possible, if you don't mind time wasting and don't think that detracts from the A Level teaching, but it would be interesting for you to explain the actual value to students of taking the new AS in say History or English on top of the same A Level? Given that it takes time from the curriculum etc. What exactly does it do for the students?

goodbye I thought AS levels just covered the first year of the A level syllabus. Are you saying that they cover different topics to the A levels?

I am getting worried now. DD is taking chemistry, biology and geography BTW.

At my large sixth form college, all students took AS exams. Whilst there are strengths and weaknesses to doing them / not doing them, I would say that some of the benefits to our students were...

• For those students who decided that A levels were not for them (and at a large A level college, there were lots!) it allowed them to leave and go to their apprenticeships with a qualification rather than just wasting the year. Many stayed on to get their AS grades rather than just dropping out completely.

• Or if they decided that a particular A level was not right for them, they could leave with the AS qual and then do a different A level in their second year as a "fast track option" (so do AS and A level concurrently". Again, many students do not know in the first three weeks whether an A level is right for them - so it allows them to change to a more suitable course. This is particularly true of A levels where students might drop down to something easier if they have struggled with AS and the A level gets much harder. For example, they might drop down from A level Philosophy to Religious Studies.

• For most of our students (largely working class, not overly academic) the AS exams gave a real wake up call in just how hard they needed to work. They took the AS exams much more seriously than the internal mocks that we had set. I know many students who thought it would be like GCSEs, didn't revise early enough or do enough and have already said that they found the process helpful and now know how much harder they need to work next year. Yes, it does seem that the whole of the last year I told them this was ignored and they now realise I was actually telling them the truth!

• For others, the AS grades are giving them a much clearer picture as to the level they're working at, and so what to apply for at uni. Of course, this year without grade boundaries and how it was marked...teachers do not really know how things are going to turn out. I know some of my students will be able to reassess their university applications. For some, this will be having more realistic expectations, for others, I think it will help them realise they can achieve and to be more ambitious in their university applications. Having the grades will help some of my students realise they can achieve and to apply for the more academic universities - particularly those who are the first ones in their families going to uni. It will also make others realise how much harder they need to work.

• Having attended all the inset courses paid and unpaid and then marked the papers for the board, I know some of the advice given to teachers at the inset was not the same as the priorities given to examiners in the standardisation meetings. I marked four contracts for three different boards this year. It will be beneficial to the students to see their responses in light of this new info and to guide them further.

• Having marked the paper, and having access to all their Exam papers, I will now be able to sit down with each student individually in light of their papers and look at problems they faced in the exams and set targets for improvement for A2. Some of these we naturally do, but I've always found other issues such as timings (particularly writing non stop for two /three hours) to be an issue that doesn't come up in class (when your lessons are not that long) or issues such as exam technique, dealing with revision etc... all advice given will be much more authentic as it will be based on the actual "trial run" of the AS grades. And yes, you can say that end of year Mocks could do this - in my experience, it does some of it, but not all - in part because our students tended not to take mocks as seriously, and then tried kidding us / them "but I would work so much harder for the real exam". For us, they did work much harder for the real exam and it will give us a much more accurate picture of where they're at and what support they need for A2.

There's a fair amount of overlap between maths and physics, and also kids who are genuinely good at maths don't tend to find maths and physics hard. There's a fair amount of maths in chemistry too. I think that combo is fine (assuming they want to do science!). Lots of kids do it. If I dropped anything it would be biology, but chat to the school.

Loincera,

For my three subjects it is exactly the same content - but the way it is assessed is slightly different. 50% knowledge & understanding/ evaluation at AS as opposed to 40/60% at A level.

Thank you for your detailed reply eirrar, so DD can continue with the course content and assume it will be examined next year?

Yes. You'd need to look at the specifics for your daughter's exams, but most papers the AS (if taken) does not count for anything towards the A level, but your daughter will sit exams next year covering both AS / 1st year work and A2/2nd year work.

For my subjects - One subject has paper 1 is the AS / 1st year work and paper 2 is the A2 / 2nd year work. Another subject will simply ask any questions across the two years' worth of work in the final A level exam.

Sorry, not if... but meant to say - assuming you're in England. In Wales, it's different!

Eirrar- how is it different in Wales?
We are in Wales and my daughter wants to do 5 subjects( Maths, Further maths, chemistry, biology and French) - of course she may have to drop one or two subjects.
I am really confused reading this thread...

In Wales, the AS will still count towards the A level, whereas in England it will not.

It's explained here:

www.cardiffacademy.co.uk/phone/qualification-wales.html

Thanks Eirrar...

"Hard A levels"
for DS, further maths A2 is a doddle, but English GCSE was a struggle
horses for courses and all that

I think, TP, that's why some HEIs don't count Further Maths as a second A level if you're applying to do eg Economics. They want to see a broader spread, however unfair that may seem.

Have you got any links for that, Orlanda? As far as I know, the only courses that have an issue with further maths as a third subject and needing a spread are some medicine degrees.

Based on my experience it's very doable. But it is much easier if you are passionate about science. There is some synergy between Maths and Physics, but relatively little with the others (other than approach). The challenge is the huge amount of learning, understanding. At that level it's about learning, with not so much opportunity (apart from project work) for expression, opinions, etc.

However, if your child is interested in science career it's a great foundation.

Thousands of students do it every year. Completely doable.

I think you have to remember that hard and easy just depends on who you are. I took two subjects that were hard for me and two that were easy for me. The easy subjects I did absolutely no revision for and got top grades (both sciences) and the hard subjects (one science and one English) I did a lot of work and still did very well. Just let him do what he wants, the only advice I would give though is to make sure that he does st least one writing heavy subject. There's no point in being educated if cannot express it.

Giraffe, LSE sees Maths, FM and a third subject as insufficiently broad for some degrees including economics.

DS was offering double maths, then found himself struggling with his fourth A level and was not predicted to get an A. (For whatever reason he found the step from GCSE hard.) Just as well he was predicted an A* for the 'soft' fifth one.

Interesting, thanks need. I just looked at their entry requirements for Economics. They do want to you do Further maths, but as a 4th subject, which is slightly different to medicine where some courses state they don't want it with maths in your offered 3, but also don't care if you take it as a 4th.

Do many folk just do maths, FM + a third (not a fourth)?

That wasn't allowed at ds's place. FM was only a fourth add-on, not a core choice.