Difference in grammar schools vs high schools

[winkywinkola]

So once your child is in grammar school, what is the difference in their education?

Surely they follow the same national curriculum as all high schools?

Is it more demanding? Faster pace of work? What exactly?

Can anyone explain please?

We are only just starting down the route but since the majority of the children entering are relatively academic achievers the pace would seem to be quicker. They also study some different subjects - Latin for instance. But overall they are still state schools studying the national curriculum.

We were attracted by the ethos, it is a quieter and more studious environment and in our case single-sex. It felt like a better fit for our DC than the alternatives, but time will tell...

Huge difference here (Midlands) I can only compare the schools that my children have attended to this is by no means guaranteed to be the same across the country. I have 1 in Grammar school and had several through high school.

More GCSEs are taken around 10-12 instead of 7 (at this high school local to me) or 8. Latin and Mandarin Chinese are also offered in the Grammar. Just French is offered at High school.

The students are expected to go to University from the Grammar preferably a Russell Group Uni or Oxbridge instead of just being expected to get a few GCSE's and do anything upon leaving school as long as its not 'nothing'.

The extra curricular activities at Grammar are more like you would get at an independent school so things like rowing, combined cadet forces, archery, fencing.

School exchange trips appear to be to more unusual places so Iceland, Japan instead of the standard France or Germany.

I don't know any Grammar student who doesn't represent the school in some way. Either sport, music, STEM events, public speaking etc

Better access to national events at the Grammar. STEM/young engineers/Young Musician of the Year entries etc This does not happen at all at the local high school. There are no out of school activities other than football (boys team only) and netball (girls team only).

Enrichment is better at the Grammar. They expect more from the students at the Grammar. But bullying is more prevalent at the Grammar and less likely to be dealt with quickly. This is 1 area the local high school does better. Bullying is stamped out if they're alerted to the issue.

The Grammar school knows it has the top children and they expect them to achieve the top results. They expect the students to be driven and want success.

The High school just wants happy kids who do well if they can academically but who are offered alternative options if they're not able to pass GCSE's. They expect their students to try hard but it doesn't matter as much if they don't aspire to university. They don't have the facilities to offer the same opportunities as the Grammar school so they do what they can with what they have.

ds and dd are at grammars.
There are a few things that I notice, but I am not sure they are exclusive to Grammar, a good comp may be able to provide the same.

• faster pace of work. So they cover more i greater depth. This means that in eg English they are able to discuss and explore ideas which are more complex

-behaviour. It is excellent, really no messing around in lessons, no disruption, just back chat to teachers, just learning. Same in playground, low tolerance for bullying etc and good atmosphere

• homework and level of work. A really high standard is expected. There is a direct comparison to other kids of the same level and you are expected to match up. This doesn't mean there is support if there is a problem, but the expectation of work produced is high. Ds once had to reproduce a DT homework because she didn't think he had spent enough time and effort on it.
• consequences that work and are imposed,
• supportive parents which have an impact on the two points above. Most parents have fought hard to get their kids there, so they support the school
• because of all of the above, it is possible to do stuff that isn't always possible. eg, bunsen burners used properly from year 7 in science, electric tools used in DT, cooking proper food from day 1 in food tech (one of ds friends in a rough comp in a rough area, the first cooking lesson was how to make a sandwich, same kids says their woodwork room is closed as they can't trust kids)

A lot of the above can be summed up as expectation, expectation, expectation.
And it is cool to be clever, and so there is a drive to succeed inherent among the students, a certain amount of competative edge.

As I said, none of these need to be exclusive to a Grammar, but the Grammar has the advantage of cherry picking their kids, so they don't have to deal with the same issues that other schools do. Of course that is great for the grammar, not so easy for the other schools

There's no single answer to this question, all grammars are different.

DS's grammar (Essex) is nothing like the one described above. It's nothing like an independent school, it is under funded its facilities and extra curricular activities are very basic. No rowing, archery or fencing! What it does offer is an excellent academic education in an environment where it is ok to be clever and the average standard is very high. The local non grammars have far better facilities though.

that shoudl say NO back chat to teachers

we do have some interesting school clubs, but you have to pay for them, so most of them are out for us.
Also posh school trips are available, but very very expensive.

DD has just had a letter home about a trip to India - 2,200 pounds!!!!!!

I went to an all girls school grammar, I'm fairly young so my first hand experience of one is fresh. I also went to a normal, everyday high school.

There was always competition between us girls with who could hand in the best paper/one of us would tally who's work had been mentioned the most that day

They offered sewing classes, skiing trips, chocolate tasting trips and there was even a science lab trip (All in Year 7).

The uniform was also lovely and smart. And no one really cared to impress anyone else as we were all girls.

PE was incredibly competitive though. Not sure why, I expected it to be very relaxed. Not so.

I left after a year because I missed the boys. I'm still angry that my Mum allowed me to do so!

I left after a year because I missed the boys. I'm still angry that my Mum allowed me to do so!

That's a bit unfair. She obviously thought you would be happy elsewhere as YOU had convinced her of that!

I went to an all-girls school and wonder if i would have done better at a mixed sex school, so it's swings and roundabouts.

but this is not about single sex versus mixed.

There was a very good thread recently on the feminist board about that is anyone is interested.

Wishful I was 11, very silly. And I was quite clear that I missed the boys

Sorry to derail the thread, steppedmum...I just wanted to respond to Blue's comment.

Blue

sorry wishful - wasn't trying to be thread police

I only have the one DD just finishing her first year at a grammar. I can't compare except from snippets of information from other parents. Advantages I see are:
Broader curriculum, DD is starting Mandarin next year for example and will be doing three languages compared to the local comp's one.

DD is in a single sex school so hasn't had the issues with the boys trying to get the girls to be mean to some other girls like a friend has experienced with her DD in a mixed comp - but there are single sex comps nearby too. As said above single sex isn't necessarily a grammar thing but it seems more grammars are single sex than comprehensives.

More opportunity for enrichment activities and trips to theatres as the curriculum is covered.

Stable teaching - DD's grammar seems to have less staff turnover than her old junior school and a friend's nearby comprehensive, but that is just a sample of 1 school so dont' know if this is representative.

Outreach - as a school of excellence the girls get to be involved in outreach at primary schools, setting a good example, encouraging the love of learning, running science programmes etc, good for community spirit.

Downsides are that the buildings are tatty as the school spends so much on the teachers (as I think they should, but others might disagree). The girls are very bright and a high proportion of inexperienced or poor teachers would not survive in this environment.

Another negative is that locals who don't get their children in tend to be rather grumpy about the grammar school children coming 'from all ends of the earth'. For us it is our closest secondary school so DD doesn't have far to go, but some of her friends are some distance away, but she is now quite good at getting herself about and public transport savvy.

Mine aren't at the same grammar as I went to, so I'm not going to be much use. I just wanted to add that all the grammars around here are called high schools-is that unusual?!

whoops, that was supposed to be

rollon - dds grammar school is called High School too.

yy to staff turnover, very stable and low staff turnover.
but I imagine a grammar with a horrible head would have high staff turnover

Like all other schools, there is no consistency and no generalities. Every school is different.

My son goes to a state grammar. It's single sex so that makes it different to some other grammars. It also has 20% intake as boarders, so it's a part boarding school, part day school, so that makes it different too.

All I can say is that my son absolutely loves it. Despite having the usual triggers for bullying such as being shy, socially anxious, not good at sports, etc., he has no bullying issues and never once has he moaned he doesn't want to go in the morning.

After being at a "normal" primary school where he was bullied and where he felt lonely and isolated, the move to the grammar has been the making of him. He loves that there is little classroom disruption and generally good discipline. He loves that he is pushed to achieve and isn't bored like he was at primary doing "noddy" work as he called it.

Because of the good behaviour throughout the school, they enjoy a lot of freedom. They're allowed to really get "hands on" in science and tech lessons, including use of power tools etc even in year 7. Rather than spending months making wooden fish and metal trowels, they were soldering their own circuit boards and using the full range of lathes, routers, etc. In year 8, there were making their own robotics.

From what I can gather, it's the behaviour and discipline that makes all the difference. Few, if any, mess around, so there's very little wasted time.

Last point is that the staff, teachers and pupils all work together really well, with a high degree of mutual respect. Perhaps part of that is the boarding school side of it where the boarders/teachers spend a lot of time together outside the classroom. What was good, though, are school trips where even the head teacher and deputies will often participate. My son loved his first camping trip where he ended up sharing a canoe in a lake with the headmaster having what sounds like one hell of a good laugh! Further to that, outside school, the teachers encourage the pupils to use their first names, so my son found it difficult, but enjoyable to be saying "Andrew" to his headteacher in the canoe rather than Mr xxxxx. Of course, it's all Mr/Mrs, Sir/Miss in school, but quite a nice distraction to be more informal outside.

If you are in a grammar area then the "high school" is what is more accurately known as a "secondary modern"

so its like a Comp with the top sets removed

• no triple science
• no double maths
• limited double English
• limited MFL

more "vocational" subjects more BTECS higher proportion of SEN higher proportion of FSM lower average aspirations

those who want to bring back grammars like to ignore the damage they do to the other schools

If you are in a grammar area then the "high school" is what is more accurately known as a "secondary modern"

Again, counties are different. What you say only really applies where either the county has compulsory 11+ or where the grammar(s) take a large proportion of the local children.

In our town, the grammar has a huge catchment area and takes a very small proportion of the local children - probably only 5-10% at most. Most primary kids don't even take the 11+, so plenty of the more able children will go to the local comps, and yes, some of the local comps do offer triple science, further maths, good MFL choices, and one even offers Latin!

So, you can't generalise like that. Around here, kids who either don't pass the 11+ or aren't entered for it, have a choice and can (if they're motivated and supported), achieve similar results to the average grammar kid.

Superselective schools are very rare and the schools around them tend not to be called "high schools"

the areas with "grammar" / "high" are Kent, Lincolnshire, Buckinghamshire, parts of Merseyside and parts of Birmingham.

There are less than 165 Grammar schools after all compared with thousands of non academically selective state schools.

Our local comp achieves outstanding results, offers a huge spectrum of subjects including triple science and double maths. 77% if the children achieve A-C in English and Maths. 65% of Sixth Former leavers went on to higher education.

In our fully comprehensive area, the only school with the name "grammar" in it's name is actually an independent school.

"bunsen burners used properly from year 7 in science”

How do you think Bunsen burners are used in comps?