Difference in grammar schools vs high schools

[winkywinkola]

So once your child is in grammar school, what is the difference in their education?

Surely they follow the same national curriculum as all high schools?

Is it more demanding? Faster pace of work? What exactly?

Can anyone explain please?

Forgot to mention all of my daughters class (year 7) were from local state primary schools.

I disagree entirely with the notion a pp child at a grammar will miss out because of the presence of wealthier fellow pupils. A high achieving pp child at a grammar is highly likely to get a direct benefit from their extra funding, whether that's help with trips or uniform. Whereas at a school with more deprived pupils and lower academic outcomes, pp is more likely to be targeted at low achievers so they don't personally benefit from it.

It's also widely acknowledged that the pp dc who do attend grammars do disproportionately well.

awful pushy parents who over tutor their dullard children

No, that is a fault with the system - that tutoring CAN affect whether a child gets in or not. It shouldn't be able to. Of course if tutoring conveys a benefit, and attending a private primary is allowed (I know that will be variable across the country - Pates' 25% was higher than i expected and, I would guess, atypical) then people who can buy tutoring will .. and then it becomes 'how things are done', despite the obvious knock on effects on those from low income homes. It's not reasonable to expect parent NOT to tutor their children if they can afford to under these circumstances.

If tutorable tests have to remain, then the grammar school should tutor PP children and others from low income households or deprived primaries (it would be in their interests, as each PP child admitted will start to closer the funding gap)

the pp dc who do attend grammars do disproportionately well.

Yes, that's statistically obvious. Because of the barriers to a child from a low income home passing the 11+, such a child is likely to be 'brighter than the average 11+ passer with the same mark. It is therefore no surprise that such exceptionally bright children do well at grammars.

The issue is with the many PP children of equal ability to wealthier 11+ passers who DON'T make the cut, because of the barriers to them taking the test at all and because of the likelihood that their preparation for it if they take it will be less expensive and therefore potentially less thorough. Equally those who never enter because they can't afford the bus fares even if they do get in.

Sorry, that wasn't clear.

Child A is from a very low income household.
Child B s not.

They get the same mark in the 11+, although A has had little preparation (their mum bought a book from WhSmith) and B has had a year of 1:1 tutoring for an hour each week. A is statistically likely to be brighter than B.

Child C is like A, but doesn't enter the test, because they come from a family which is too chaotic to fulfil the application arrangements for the test. Similarly Child D from the same income band, whose parents know that the bus pass will cost them hundreds of ppounds they don't have.

Child E is another from the same background.
Child F is like child B - extensively tutored. They are not quite as bright as B, but with careful preparation, they pass. E is of equal ability, but without the test preparation does not pass.

So of course the child As do very well. the concern should be for children C, D and E, who despite being of grammar school calibre, are prevented by their relative poverty from accessing it.

I have to say I know of no one in Bucks who does 1:1 tutoring - most are tge DIY books from Smiths types.

Maternal education is always shown as a big deciding factor because of the positive effects it has on vocabulary. Obv in an opt out county there is no registering for 11+ - it happens automatically and children sit the test in their primary school. Similarly grammar and Uppers are in same town so same transport costs.

That said I don't disagree that middle class kids are not at an advantage when it comes to 11+ but I would say it is more from tge cultural capital in the home then 1:1,tutors (I think that madness belongs more to the super selective schools)

On the 'how many privately educated children in Bucks grammars' - the only one I can find with a small % of privately educated children is Burnham. All the others (selected by the crude measure of selecting schools in Bucks and selecting any with the word 'Grammar' in their name, plus Royal Latin) have at least 10% of children, and in a couple of cases double that or more, e.g. 55 / 180, who do not have KS2 scores, are not included in Progress 8 and thus are likely to have come from private schools.

Again, in the interests of accuracy, children who arrive from schools abroad post Year 6 will also not have KS2 scores, and will thus appear in the above percentages. I don't know the schools well enough to be able to judge which are in areas of high mobility and are likely to have 'occasional' places post Y7 for arrivals from overseas. However, where the figure is 20% of pupils in Y11, then it is very unlikely that all will have come from overseas.....

What year are the children who you're looking at.

Anyway I was talking about my daughters class - that is how it is.

Year 11 - that's who the data is published for, as part of the GCSE results dataset.

Of course it can be simultanously true that nearly 1/3 of pupils in Year 11 went to private primaries based on whole school data, and that a single class in Y7 can have all state school educated pupils. That's why the plural of anecdote isn't data.

cant I fully agree, I was responding to the idea a pp child at a grammar would struggle because of the greater number of wealthier dc.

cantkeepawayforever I ask because Bucks changed their 11+ significantly- current year 9 (next years 10) were first to take it and it did appear to have an impact on the results so will be interesting to see how it pans out. 1 class is 25% of year 7 so not an insignificant amount.

Obviously I understand the difference between anecdote and data

cantkeepawayforever Wycombe High School could have a fairly low number of prep joiners too. Bear in mind, though, some preps. do SATs.

It is clear from the leavers destinations of some preps. however, that some Buck Grammars have fairly high numbers of prep. joiners e.g. Dr Challenors.

My children aren't at either of those schools but yes the Chalfonts are very different to Wycombe. There are a huge number of preps around tgat area. At my children's school there are a number of private school joiners but I do feel the numbers are decreasing- the catchment area is very small and the last couple of years they haven't offered all of catchment whereas previous they had offered to about a mile or so outside catchment.

Ollycat Fri 21-Jul-17 19:13:24 I ask because Bucks changed their 11+ significantly

Bucks is moving from CEM back to GL in 2018

A high achieving pp child at a grammar is highly likely to get a direct benefit from their extra funding, whether that's help with trips or uniform

But what happens if the help isn't enough.

Why wouldn't pp funding be enough if it's only trips and uniform? Granted it won't cover expensive ski trips, but I'd be very surprised to find any school where every dc goes on every trip abroad.

Our GS has a fund that is specifically to pay for children to go on trips they might not otherwise be able to afford - beyond PP. Set up by the head 10+ years ago because he was that poor kid at GS 40 odd years ago, his dad was a milkman.

Used uniform is directed to one local charity shop.

MumTryingHerBest but not back to codes / VR but to curriculum based things - also the reason for the move is that CEMENT chose not to bid for the contract. The original contract was for 3 years which was the current year 9 - 7.

CEM not CEMENT obviously anyway the point is they will still be curriculum based and a million miles away from the old VR.