Difference in grammar schools vs high schools

[winkywinkola]

So once your child is in grammar school, what is the difference in their education?

Surely they follow the same national curriculum as all high schools?

Is it more demanding? Faster pace of work? What exactly?

Can anyone explain please?

The Balcarras School website is most helpful

www.balcarras.gloucs.sch.uk/page/?pid=24

•210 families give a monthly standing order to the school.
•PTFA events like this year’s ball which contributed a staggering £11 000 to Balcarras and our charity, LINC.

I suspect many comps in wealthy areas are similar.

Wow!!! That's incredible and nothing like the comps in my area. We chat move or access comps in a better area.

The poverty in Winchester, Hampshire....is not comparable in any way to Burnley Harpurey Hey or Moston in Manchester...

According to the ONS its directly comparable.
Look at the map for the Index of deprivation .....
dclgapps.communities.gov.uk/imd/idmap.html

Yes, but if you actually type in the location names in the top right of the Index map then Burnley etc. are indeed much more deprived than poorer areas in Winchester; Burnley is ranked 79 out of 32,844 LSOAs in England, where 1 is the most socially deprived LSOA in the country.

None of the 70 LSOAs in or around Winchester appear fall into the 10% or 20% most deprived categories;
www3.hants.gov.uk/factsandfigures/figures-economics/deprivation_indices.htm

dclgapps.communities.gov.uk/imd/idmap.html

It's probably worth noting, in the interests of fairness, that Pates grammar appears to be raising c £200,000 per year from parents and alumni, plus being supported by a foundation. Balcarras, from the link provided, seem to raise about a quarter of that, up from £15,000 5 years ago.

Pates link

dclgapps.communities.gov.uk/imd/idmap.html
(third time lucky?)

I found the Balcarras data by googling - however it may be that not all schools publish their data in the same way.

This document:

here gives the current block funding - ie the amount of money per student every single school in an area will get. Gloucestershire's is £4,357.45; Burnley in Lancashire's will be £4,481.89; Nottingham's is £5,329.23; Islington's is £6,220.88.

So a grammar school and a secondary modern and a comprehensive in that area will all get that block funding. What makes the difference in terms of funding will be things like pupil premium and SEN funding - comps and secondary moderns will tend to get more of this (even comparing Balcarras and Pates, Balcarras has 8% PP, Pates

However, that said, grammars will tend to be able to raise more money from their more affluent and more engaged parent and alumni base (especially in opt-in counties, it is engaged parents who enter the 11+). It is the exception rather than the rule that comprehensives and secondary moderns will be able to draw on parents to the same extent.

Apologies. I have misled you, and didn't mean to. This Parliamentary briefing:
heer is a useful summary, and I had not appreciated the role of the LA in setting the local allocation of the block funding.

It would be interesting to see how that works out in different areas.

From what I can see (I have used Gloucestershire as an example), what happens to the block grant is that minimum funding is set for primary, KS3 and KS4 (ranging in Gloucestershire's case from just under £3,000 for primary age pupils to about £4.500 for KS4).

There are then additional factors (deprivation, low prior attainment, EAL) that attract additional funding and then some more minor adjustments.

So grammars will 'miss out' relative to comprehensives and secondary moderns, simply because of the fact that their % of deprived pupils and children who start their secondary education from a very low base is lower. Attracting a fair proportion of deprived children would in fact improve their funding very substantially, as well as removing one of the most obvious examples of their unfairness - the fact that children from low income families have a significantly lower chance of attending them.

However, that said, grammars will tend to be able to raise more money from their more affluent and more engaged parent and alumni base (especially in opt-in counties, it is engaged parents who enter the 11+). It is the exception rather than the rule that comprehensives and secondary moderns will be able to draw on parents to the same extent.

Well if the schools offer something that is 'memorable' and worth preserving , i am sure Alumni and current parents will be more than happy to provide funding !

If a school is in affect just a 'traffic light' meaning a place children go to before the light goes green , it is hardly surprising the ex Alumni have no desire to put their hands in their pocket !

Schools need to be able to offer 'memorable' experiences during a pupil school career for those ex pupils. This is the reason why schools that offer this have ex pupils that are predisposed to helping out their old school whether financially or giving i.e speeches or advice to pupils !

Of course school alumni will tend to choose to contribute to their old school if it has given them a memorable experience that has led to their future success in life.

However, the economic ability of alumni to contribute is going to vary by school population - alumni who are successful lawyers, bankers, surgeons, top business people are likely to be able to contribute in more substantial amounts than alumni who are successful joiners, electricians, nurses, admin assistants.

So my understanding of school funding would suggest that, within any given local authority grammar schools will be less well funded than leafy comps with low %PP, who themselves will be less well funded than schools which take high proportions of children from deprived areas. It seems to me hard to argue that that is, a priori, unfair - though the huge variation between different local authorities seems to me to be unjustifiable.

However, the ability to raise additional funds from current parents and alumni is likely to be in reverse order - again in the same area, the grammar is likely to be able to raise more than the leafy comprehensive, which again is likely to be able to raise more than the school with high % of deprived children.

To what extent the funds from parents / alumni can compensate for lost revenue from central souces is unknown - schoolcuts suggests that Balcarras will lose £572,474, offset by c. £50,.000 per year, whereas Pates will lose £372,246, offset by c. £200,000 per year. That will change based on new government announcements, though, as Gloucestershire looks to be a significant net gainer from the announcement that the block grant will not be less than £4,800 in any area.

The general impression I get from this thread is that grammar schools are for the monied elite. Those with parents who can afford trip to India and after school activities and money to prop up the school. For a solely academic career. There doesn't appear to be any choice.

A few years ago a friends son without any extra tuition managed to pass the 11+. He left after 2 1/2 years because his aspirations for his life didn't match what was being taught.
Friends son flourished in the local comp because he wanted to learn a trade. Something that the grammar school looked down their noses on. Friend was so angry after the meeting with the Head Master who was very dismissive of his life chances if he went down the trade route. He now has a huge business something that if he had stayed on in the grammar would have been denied.

cantkeepawayforever Fri 21-Jul-17 09:21:01 Attracting a fair proportion of deprived children would in fact improve their funding very substantially,

As would filling existing empty places:

www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2017/03/grammars-oversubscribed-apparently-not-in-lincolnshire

Oliversmum, I would query the 'monied elite'.

I would say that, in any area, they are for the 'RELATIVELY monied elite' - so those who are relatively wealthy in that local area. So a grammar in a generally poorer area WILL have more children from deprived backgrounds than a grammar in a wealthier area, but what they will both have in common is that their intake will be less deprived than average for that area.

It's a bit like private schools - not all parents are rich in 'absolute terms', but the average wealth of the parents in a private school will be higher than the average wealth of all families in the area it serves.

The Pate's School fundraising target for the academic year 2017/18 is £150,000, for Balcarras it's £100,000. The gap is not as wide as you are suggesting.

Pate's does have a Foundation as well of course but that's because the school was founded in 1574. Interestingly, Sir Peter Lampl, founder of the Sutton Trust attended Pate's Grammar School (his father was a Vietnamese émigré who attended night school to learn English and became an engineer).

The general impression I get from this thread is that grammar schools are for the monied elite. The moneyed elite send their dc to independent schools.

Clavinova, sorry, maybe I misread or misinterpreted that? I had based it on actual monies raised rather than targets that could be aspirational or overly conservative - Balarras was £50,0000, Pates to end December 2016 was £200,000, both given on pages linked to before.

The Pates target of £150,000 was for the end of August, so I had assumed from January to August, as the £200,000 reported had been to end December?

I agree that the figures are unclear, however the Pate's target from August 2017 to August 2018 appears to be 'only' £150,000.

Sorry again, yes I had misinterpreted it. The £20,000 was a blip - it looks as if they raised:

£140k ro end December 2015
£200k to end December 2016
a further £113k+ to date in 2017, targeting £125k in the 8 months
target for 2017-18 is £150k

Balcarras by comparison:
2014/15: £15,000
2015/16: just under £40k
2016/17: Just over £50k

So Pates has a track record of raising around £150k per annum, Balcarras a significantly increasing trend but with £100k seeming significantly aspirational based on current rates.

My DDs went to local Direct Grant girls' school (mix of state and private: not many left) which was very much like my old Grammar school and not at all like a public/boarding school. Poor facilities, emphasis on academic over art, drama, sport but excellent all round broad education and results which opened doors. We had to make an effort to provide locally the sport and creative things the school lacked.

They chose to move in 6th form to independent sector (one got a 50% scholarship) for the broader experience. It meant we only had one set of serious fees at a time. It's socially harder for boys to move at 16 though.

Oliversmum, I would query the 'monied elite'.

On the first page of this thread there is talk of extra curricular activities, which presumably cost money, exchange trips which cost money. Then buying your own books. Funding the school. Someone even mentioned how well the year 7 orchestra played. I presume that these pupils didn't learn these instruments in the school free of charge.

Friend was on income support and used to regularly get letters home which involved payments for various school trips etc non of which she could afford. Her ds was the only one from his primary who passed the 11+ who was raised on income support.

I suppose it depends where you think 'monied elite' starts! That is why I modified it to 'relatively monied elite', compared to the local average.

Genuinely wealthy people will tend to go to private schools. Those who are comfortably off, in a wholly selective system, will tend to be better-represented at the grammar. Those who are extremely deprived will tend to be more highly represented at the secondary modern. So the average parental income at a private school > average parental wealth at a grammar > average parental wealth at a comprehensive > average parental wealth at a secondary modern if all those schools serve an area with particular demographics.

However, regional varations being what they are, it is entirely possible that average wealth of a grammar family in a generally deprived area may be very similar to that of the average wealth of a comprehensive in the home counties! it's why you have to be careful that you are comparing apples with apples.

Just RTFT and there was a massive difference in parental backgrounds and wealth between the Grammar/Direct Grant schools and the Independent in our experience. At my Grammar and my DD's school everyone was basically (at least) quite bright or had potential, from all sorts of backgrounds, which we liked, and at the public schools they attended in 6th form that was different with almost everyone comfortably off and adding the super-rich and the old money (who may have little money but might have the stately pile).

As a result I have 5 adult DCs who are as comfortable at my extended family's working class village hall knees ups as they are meeting a Duke or the Rockerfellers at a wedding (I kid you not) "I sat with some nice American people called Rockerfeller who some people were getting excited about" said DD4. Her friend who is trying to get into film production had a 'little black book ' and was noting people whereas DD was totally unfazed and had no idea why her friend was so excited or who they were. She's an NHS nurse so hardly going to be of use!

I like the fact that they're like that I think it's great and has made them less judgmental and less impressionable.