Let's get back to a time when students, not teachers, could be blamed for exam performance

[noblegiraffe]

Has the responsibility for exam results gone too far in the direction of teachers? Should feckless students be allowed to fail?

As a teacher I certainly feel under pressure to get students good results, even when they are not co-operating. Even at sixth form now at my school we are expected to chase kids around to make sure they've done a revision plan, done the work they are expected to do, liaise extensively with parents.

I'm also annoyed when kids that I am supposed to be getting through their GCSE are excluded in the run-up to the exams, or are taken out of my lessons (maths!) to do catch-up for other subjects. I need that time to get them the results!

But I also see that teachers need some responsibility for results otherwise they could just phone it in.

How should things be?

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-views/lets-get-back-a-time-when-students-not-teachers-could-be-blamed-exam

All those quiet kids who just want to get on with learning would not then have their learning stifled by the "real characters"

That would be those quiet, more introverted kids who until recently (think it changed in DSM-5 published 2013) were considered to have a mental disorder.

I'm not convinced that hard work is genetic, I remember reading a document about immigrant education success, I think it was in Australia. The relatively good results typically didn't stretch to the 2nd generation.

Isn't it the same thing they say about wealth? Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/sec.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/globe-wealth/eroding-family-fortunes-how-the-cycle-can-be-broken/article33757468/%3Fservice%3Damp

While I certainly believe in heredity - it is easy to observe inherited genetic character traits in my family - DC are easily sent off course by chaos or even just disorder in their home lives.

Why does that mean that character trait is genetic and not e.g. caused by growing up with a parent who got flappy at things not being as expected?

I agree with what you're saying Bobochic.

While I was at uni I went to France to work at a French holiday day camp for kids aged about 3-8. The thing I noticed was that the staff were kind and fun but didn't endlessly fuss over the kids and although it was all day (about 9:30-3pm if I remember correctly) there was no endless snacking. The kids had a drink of water in the morning and then they all sat down on rugs and ate their lunch (massive baguettes with ham and cheese mostly) yogurt, apples. They ate a massive amount but it was healthy and not endless snacking on chocolate biscuits and juice. They then had to sit quietly for a bit.

The staff "animateurs" set up games and helped them out etc but talked to them in quite adult voices and expected them to listen.

It had quite an impact on me. I helped at primary schools as well back in the UK and it struck me then how much less independent and competent our kids were. Lots more molly coddling and too much listening to all their gripes and woes and not giving them the space to solve their problems themselves. And endless snack breaks and drinks.

It's not just about genes, but this is a very key paper on that angle:

The high heritability of educational achievement reflects many genetically influenced traits, not just intelligence: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4210287/

Judith Rich Harris of group socialisation theory fame has the strong arguments on peer influence over a couple for decades ago (book: The Nurture Assumption). There's a good article on all this here: quillette.com/2015/12/01/why-parenting-may-not-matter-and-why-most-social-science-research-is-probably-wrong/

Regardless I have the example of DD where one of her earliest spoken phrases was a tetchy "Me do it!" and she just kept on doing its with whatever effort was required to do them very well. We didn't instill that, it is simply what she does. Her new secondary friends, gravitated to each other very quickly and althought they're a quirky, eclectic bunch, one common theme is that they're the ones who get their homework done as soon as they get home, revise properly for all tests etc.

I didn't do it Miss. Honest. It was her! We'll take the majority of the credit for teaching her to read which was a fun, integrated part of the bed-time routine (despite bleeping Biff & Chip). We'll also take credit for making opportunities. But her attitudes, including the work-ethic, are definitely hers and that's now supported/normalised by her closest peers.

Brain glitch > Judith Rich Harris of group socialisation theory fame has has the strong arguments on peer influence for over a couple of decades.

Third time lucky > Judith Rich Harris of group socialisation theory fame has had the strong arguments on peer influence for over a couple of decades.

My results were definitely seen as my fault by my school, but then they didn't listen when I said the teacher bullied me by regularly locking me in a cupboard and lying about grading my work.

Like others, I think it needs to be a balance.

If a pupil has a complete lack of encouragement/negative attitude to learning in their home environment and brings this to school, of course the education system (and therefore teachers) should try to combat that and help them to succeed in spite of this. I.e. offering revision sessions to children who are unlikely to revise independently.

However, if after all reasonable efforts, it's just not happening, I hardly think the teacher can be blamed.

PiqueABoo I was not aware that not being disruptive in class was a sign of a mental disorder, but you have obviously studied the subject more than me.

Having twins (my own little control group) I'd say that it's a slippery mixture of nature/nurture.

My DC have such different aptitudes, despite experiencing the same stimuli at the same time. I can't help but feel it comes from within.

But then there are shared traits which seem to come more from how we roll as a family. Hard work definitely being one of them. DH and I both push ourselves hard to achieve what we want. And our expectations were always that the kids do likewise.

School has also played its part though. All schools attended have had very exacting standards of behaviour and expected engagement ( from both DC and DH and I). I recall the offer letter from prep school including all manner of stuff about how we could support the school.

DC had to arrive ( excepting disability) toileting unassisted, eating at table, able to change for PE etc etc. And from day one, there was 'homework'.

in sixth form, the teachers would no more chase a child for outstanding work than they would tie their laces . Missed work lower in the school = punishment and email to parent. By sixth form it's generally a thing of the dim and distant past.

Yes however there are schools that could do the "punishment and email home" and it would make zero difference: parents would either not receive or ignore emails, and actively create reasons why their child should either be exempt from punishment or say their child has a "dentist appointment" to get them out of it.

It's only with supportive parents that schools can make the most difference.

I completely accept that cauli.

There has to be a buy in of the ethos by first the parents, then laterly the students.

Where schools don't get that buy in, I don't blame teachers one jot for poor performance.

CauliflowerSqueeze - in France, that way of treating DC is a given in much of society (at least in the French more traditional bit - it comes down through the generations) and typically all adults a DC encounters will have a similar approach. The whole thing only works where expectations are consistent.

My DP, who is French through and through, thinks nothing of telling a visiting child to hold his knife and fork properly, close his mouth when eating, say goodnight and good morning properly (Bonjour, FirstName, plus a kiss). French DC think it's perfectly normal to b reminded by the adults around them to do these things.

I also think that school reports tend to be far more direct in France. At the lycée where I worked the bulletins scolaires seemed quite harsh "big gaps" "no progress" "pathetic efforts". I wondered if things had perhaps softened in the years since I was there, but in fact we had a boy transfer from the lycée français in London to our school a few years ago and his report was absolutely dreadful. Not one tiny iota of softening of anything. When my Headteacher asked me to translate it her eyes were like saucers by the end "appalling concentration" "constantly disruptive in class" "zero desire to improve" etc. He came and was absolutely fine, no problems at all. So the standards at that school must be sky high!! There's no way a UK report would have anything like those comments. "Occasional lapses in concentration" would be about the limit. But then you ask yourself why. And the reason is that 1) I think UK parents tend to think of their kids as princes and princesses and any negative comment is a direct challenge on their parenting which they take very personally and 2) a lot of parents would blame the school: "what are YOU doing about it?"; "there must be a personality clash"; "he's never like that at home" etc.

And the irony is that the more over-protective they are and the more they excuse and deflect away the behaviour, the less of a favour long term they are actually doing to their children. Why don't they get it.

I'm held to account by SLT on an individual student-by-student basis if they don't achieve their target. The target is often based on their mathematical ability (so not my subject), based on a SATs test they were taught to for at least a year, age 11. I have to produce evidence of my 'intervention'. I spend far too much time recording my 'interventions' loading my evenings with marking and prep. I do fear burnout/extra monitoring if my results ever drop (there's always a first time). SLT fear Ofsted.

I also have had parents say 'My child wants an A*, what are you doing to ensure that? What extra revision classes are you running? Can they have some one to one support?'

The problem is long-term it does the students no favours. But they're caught up in this high pressure exam system too - and I worry about their mental health. My own DC1 has absurdly high targets based off his SATs - poster child for his primary school - pita target-wise for his secondary school. It's a very fucked system.

I don't welcome students failing but there needs to be an easing of pressure and expectations.

Cauliflower I agree with you! But since the educational reform things in France are getting more like the UK...we now have a policy of 'bienveillance' in secondary schools and are a lot less blunt in our school reports (I'm an English teacher in France). The relationships between parents and teachers seem increasingly strained, and French teenagers are more and more likely to be 'special snowflakes' if you'll excuse the term...also as repeating a year has become almost impossible, behaviour and attainment are slipping...

Unfortunately they sometimes get my back up by participating in the 'modern' culture of selling themselves by 'bragging' about their achievements, obsessing about uniforms etc, while failing to address important problems such as drugs being sold on the premises, horrendous sexist language and inappropriate use of mobile phones etc. No wonder so many teenagers have mental health problems.

This is an issue for both staff and pupils imo.
Pupils often don't get the academic and support focus they need because staff are focussing on the children who 'make the school look bad'
But I also know many staff want to help the students and many don't agree with this ethos of 'image' but are bound by the demands of senior leadership and governors.

I truly believe that is why the staff turnover in the local academy is so high.

They failed my ds massively due to their ethos and luckily after a school move he's improved massively in his MH.

I think teachers should be tasked with providing motivating and engaging lessons differentiated to their cohort.
If a student is t motivated or engaged there should be a different person/department dealing with that. It's unfair on all involved in the classroom when 1 pupil is disruptive or takes up more teacher time.

Also I think setting should be more evident. It's really unrealistic to expect children with 3/4 years difference in academic ability to all be engaged quality in an hours lesson. It's no wonder some become disruptive - it's usually frustration.

In conclusion I think some of the responsibility does need to be taken off teachers. I think they are held far too accountable for things way beyond their control due to budget cuts and are fighting against a tide of so called raises standards and accountability.

And I'm not a teacher!

Sorry the first paragraph was meant to be bold as I copied it from another OP upthread.

Sagely that's interesting. Did you do the CAPES or are you at an international school?

Our DC have mostly had quite good reports so I don't have first hand experience of a softening of tone in French schools. However, DP is in his seventh year as a parent rep at the DC's secondary school and the stuff he repeats to me about what is said about students in the conseil de classe isn't especially lax! And this is a small Catholic school that has always been "bienveillant" relative to others. Several DC will be chucked out due to performance/behavioural issues at the end of this year.

I think that teachers are blamed for a lot more than they should be.
If the child is left on an iPad at home or ignored or education isn't considered important to the parent then no amount of inspiring teaching is going to work.
Kids copy their parents behaviour during their early years. If mum never a reads then it is a bit much for anyone to expect the child to want to learn. Some might it it is unusual.
The shame is that some teachers write off bright kids who have little support at home.

I.e. offering revision sessions to children who are unlikely to revise independently

You can't only offer revision sessions to the feckless, that's unfair on the hardworking students who want more teacher input.

And then you end up with revision sessions as an expectation. Students then think they don't need to revise as they can just go to a revision session.

noblegiraffe In schools I've worked in, revision sessions were an expectation - from SMT as much as pupils. I think there's a growing recognition that, in a society which places such value (rightly or wrongly...) on how much knowledge you can force into your head for the month of June when you're 16, children shouldn't be disadvantaged if, for whatever reason, studying isn't their top priority at that time. If we can help them out just a little bit, we should.

However, that doesn't mean the teacher should then be blamed if it still doesn't work out for them. It's the teacher's responsibility to support kids to maximise their potential, but not all will.