Let's get back to a time when students, not teachers, could be blamed for exam performance

[noblegiraffe]

Has the responsibility for exam results gone too far in the direction of teachers? Should feckless students be allowed to fail?

As a teacher I certainly feel under pressure to get students good results, even when they are not co-operating. Even at sixth form now at my school we are expected to chase kids around to make sure they've done a revision plan, done the work they are expected to do, liaise extensively with parents.

I'm also annoyed when kids that I am supposed to be getting through their GCSE are excluded in the run-up to the exams, or are taken out of my lessons (maths!) to do catch-up for other subjects. I need that time to get them the results!

But I also see that teachers need some responsibility for results otherwise they could just phone it in.

How should things be?

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-views/lets-get-back-a-time-when-students-not-teachers-could-be-blamed-exam

Unless league tables are scrapped, I can't see the situation changing in schools.

This situation, placing all this stress and extra workload on teachers is one of the reasons so many are quitting.

I know that all the hand-holding in Y11 means in Y12 students don't know how to study independently. God knows what happens when they get to university.

Hi noble, I think league tables should still exist as it still enables parents to use a variety of information to make informed decisions on school choices.

I also think that teachersre vastly overworked, underpaid and not given the deference that say teachers in Asia, Canada and Australia - where they are rightly revered and paid well.i speak as a former governor, and as you well know, I am also a sharp-elbowed know it all, pushy parent.

I think the biggest issue is too much admin, continual raft of new govt initiatives and bigger class sizes. Smaller class sizes, less admin, better paid teachers and more discipline at home (aka the herd of wild elephants in the room, or is that savannah) would demonstrate that teaching children is a key determination of investment for the country's future prosperity.

Anyway, back to reality, it will never happen. We all need to protest our local MPs - as they emerge from their metropolitan enclaves and are forced to press the flesh with us plebs - sorry, I mean voters.

I was reading a document the other day that was some education experts being grilled by a select committee (I'm so rock and roll). They were discussing league tables and how they influence what happens in schools for the worse. What trout was saying earlier about the school that only did maths and English from y5 is a particularly egregious example but many primary schools seem to get pupils revising for SATs as if they were GCSEs, with after school boosters, Easter sessions and so on. 11 year olds! The experts commented that with small intakes in primary, one result can hugely distort the outcomes.

The experts said that if the government scrapped league tables all that would happen is that the papers would publish their own cobbled together ones. The recommendation was that if the government continued to publish them then at least they could control the variables to present to parents, in a way that was more meaningful than raw results.

I would love to run a school where kids and parents were interviewed and offered places solely on the basis of their work ethos and support for teachers and education.

"but many primary schools seem to get pupils revising for SATs as if they were GCSEs, with after school boosters, Easter sessions and so on. 11 year olds! The experts commented that with small intakes in primary, one result can hugely distort the outcomes"

Yes

I would love to run a school where kids and parents were interviewed and offered places solely on the basis of their work ethos and support for teachers and education.

Nice "perfect world" idea. Yes, indeed, it would be a doddle for the teachers. But, on the other side, would you actually have a job? These days, if you have a compliant child and engaged parents, surely you don't need a school at all with all the online resources available. Isn't that part of the reason why home-ed is so popular and rapidly growing?

Most parents have to work, unfortunately.

I read on a blog somewhere that if you wanted to set up a school which gave an easy ride in terms of getting results, you'd set up a school for Chinese girls who have English as a second language who have recently entered the country.

Noble, do you mean setting up a "grammar school"?

portico When you see some posters on here going 'oh yes, our grammar has lots of students from ethnic minorities', I'm thinking 'I bet it does'.

But why do Chinese students get such great results in our schools? What do their parents do that makes such a difference?

It's not just Chinese students. Indian and Black African students are also right up there.

Interesting article here:
www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/think-leicester/education/2016/against-the-odds-ethnic-minority-students-are-excelling-at-school

I am an Indian background parent. I am never happy with performance, as it can falter at any time. I know from my own experience. We also tend to see jobs as the ultimate goal. We drive our children to those ends.

Do you get the kids' buy-in on those goals? Or does the endless chasing, interventions and organisation of the pupils by the teachers just continue at home with the parents?

I've taught some amazing self-motivated and extremely hard-working kids, but I've also taught plenty who see education as something that is done to them. And nowadays they've even less incentive to make an effort when some teacher will scoop them up and hand them everything they need in extra revision sessions.

Trifle You say it's not your job to chase pupils like a blue-arsed fly, but are SLT supportive of that? In my school they want to see evidence of everything that you have offered said failing pupil (while not seeing said failing pupil to ask them what they've done about it).

Yes, noble but to an extent. Ds1 became more motivated in Y9 as GCSEs started so he knew the stakes. Ds2 takes it easy and I will try. Motivate him in Y9. We have many cousins doing well at school and university so peer competition among them helps.

I am a secondary HoD. In my exam results analysis meetings I am expected to be able to evidence everything I have done to try and get the pupils their target. I have 30 in the current cohort. A good third of them were pushed into taking my subject by parents who were told the EBacc was the be all and end all by SLT. They neither like nor have any aptitude for my subject. But they still have targets of B or higher. If I don't achieve at least the national average, my own performance is called into question. But it fails to take into account the above reasons.

That's awful.

noble

You are seeing them when they are old. It starts pre-school. Everything to do with confidence and motivation and tenacity does (and initiative, and intellectual curiosity) I know you know this BTW
Teachers in Primary need MORE TIME to focus on these factors if they are to redress the problems that some children have with their thinking skills and learning behaviours

I'd like schools to return to this because it might prevent students coming to university who think that it's my responsibility to ensure they pass, not their responsibility to do the work and make use of the resources available to them. Increasingly they're both unwilling and incapable of writing anything without insisting that I look at their plans/tell them what they should be writing/exactly what to read (because a reading list isn't enough guidance; they want me to read everything for them and tell them exactly where the information is). They've mostly come in with qualifications based in coursework that their teachers appear to have been pretty much doing for them (and I don't for a second imagine the teachers want to be doing that).

It would be much better for everyone if we insisted that it was the student's responsibility to ensure they pass from GCSE onwards. You can lead horses to water...

milady that doesn't surprise me at all. And from what I've heard, student satisfaction surveys and league tables (again!) are putting pressure on universities to comply.

I agree that teachers in England are given far too much responsibility for pupil compliance. Children need to be taught that it is their responsibility to do the work. I am very happy that our DC, educated in French schools, know that they are responsible for their own learning. As a parent, I know exactly what school expects of me and of my DC. I appreciate the role clarity.

Matchsticks - exam results analysis meetings?!

This sounds like dystopian hell.

Yes noble. You are exactly right. The NSS is utter folly.

I refuse to comply. Instead I put all my efforts into managing expectations and making it clear that I am not holding anyone's hand for their own good. Their expectations will not go down well in a workplace.