When parents are slagging off the local comp...

[Everyoneafter3]

I've posted before about my concerns over the local secondary, which, thanks to comments on this board and an excellent recent Ofsted, are very much allayed. I had a very good read of school newsletters etc and am much happier. Dd1 (Y4) is musically gifted and will also audition for a specialist music school.

The area in which we live is very affluent: many children round here go to fee-paying independent schools. These dc are going to school and telling my dd (and others) that the local secondary is rubbish ("my mum and dad say..."). One particularly stupid parent has said at home that "no child of mind will set foot in x school" which of course is coming back home with our dd.

Dd1 has now got it into her head that the local school is terrible, that she's really upset to go to not a good school, that she wishes we weren't poor (we're not! But no, we can't afford independent school fees without having to sacrifice other stuff we prioritise as a family). She's been researching exam results and all sorts.

For our part we've said well look at any local school she'd like to, although as we live across the road from the school in question it'd be unlikely that she'd get in.

I'm heartily sick of parents telling their dc how awful the local school is. It's simply not fair. My dc won't receive a 'lesser' education. They aren't going to a 'rubbish' school. If this continues I'm tempted to speak to their current primary school tbh. What else can I do? I've told dd to not listen, we've looked at the school website, talked about results (!) but I'm at a loss.

In fact if you look at KSA's or Talhudeel results, a school in a very deprived area, they wipe the floor with some grammar schools!

Yes goodbye I do, of course entering with high attainment makes it harder to top that up - but considering how selective they are they should be beating NLCS easily.

So is this in fact another grammar bashing thread? It could be argued persuasively that the best grammars do a magnificent job on the funds available, and the consequences of that.

You persist in the same mistake that a higher number of applicants means the intake is more intelligent. I think the CAT scored at both schools would be similar.

so your answer to this conundrum is simply that every child who goes to an independent school (it's not just the top indies that are better with oxbridge) is just better, either because they are more able at critical thinking due to having wealthy parents, or because all independent teachers are for some reason better than grammar teachers. Despite the crossover between the sectors.

Ayosha previous posts have covered this so I am getting every so slightly bored by this (although I do enjoy all your ' ergos '
However once more.
Reasons:

• different type of selection by certain 'top independents' that includes interviews (may for example select original thinkers or highly intelligent DCs with dyslexia who would n't do so well in the eleven plus )

-wider choice of degree subjects by independent school pupils and more likely to try Oxbridge and possibly try post A level

-more likely to have Oxbridge style tutorial teaching in independent sixth forms which challenges pupils who are ready for it

You will also find that pupils from super selective London grammar schools will tend to go for traditional career degrees. I bet you the top choices will be medicine, law, economics, mathematics and engineering all of which are highly competitive for entry.

Hoho, 11+ interviews selecting for highly original thinkers...pull the other one!

I think you'd have a point if privates were underrepresented in the courses you mentioned - but indies dominate medicine, engineering, maths too.

I also don't see how most indies teach in a tutorial style system - perhaps Eton does? But most other indies have pretty conventional 6th form teaching unless something has dramatically changed over the past 10 years.

re: grammars; I think they make the whole education system worse (like private schools); I also think they clearly aren't doing as well as they could be with a level results, although this alone is not enough to explain why they don't get more pupils into Oxbridge.

In terms of intake, I do think they have more able girls and boys than the indies. They are more selective; they have the top 0.5-1% of what they are selecting for, and what we currently (and the govt.) define as ability. Using the commonly understood meaning of selective, they are more selective...unless you can tell me of a private school with 23 applicants per place?!

Whether or not you agree that this is "real" intelligence is another matter...

Do you know about the 11+ or 16+ procedures of every private school then that you can say that? Wow aren't you amazing but also wrong
My child sat for private school 11+ exams recently and was asked several questions in her interviews that required creative thinking. She also sat a creative problem solving exam alongside the standard exams.

It's free to apply to a grammar school. It costs £100 now or more to apply to the elite London day schools. This could explain in part why "self selection" is more robust for the private schools than the grammars.

Alyosha - purely anecdotally, my impression is that there is a domain where independently educated English DC are consistently excellent compared to their peers (both in English state schools and in other countries), and that is in their verbal fluency. Does that make sense to you?

People who are very good talkers (and writers) are able to express their knowledge and thinking better than than those who are just good.

Alyosha are you basing your reasoning purely on your own teenage years at one London school or have you present day experience?
I am guessing the former which puts you in a position of outdated anecdotal evidence.

Oxbridge tutorial style teaching will happen anywhere sufficient calibre staff and students are in the majority (although does not require 1:1 or even 1:5) That will be schools like Westminster, NLCS, Eton, Winchester, St Pauls schools and several other very academic independents.
State class sizes even in the sixth form prevent as much time for marking of work and verbal engagement from the pupils. State schools generally have less highly qualified academics as teachers, even grammar schools.

The other factor to consider for the disparity in Oxbridge places is the growing number of very bright international pupils in independent schools. Some join in sixth form but at that stage may already be far advanced beyond the syllabus in STEM subjects. This means it is not just between state and independent UK students.

sendsummer - I very much agree with you that large class sizes create disparities for state educated DC in the quantity/quality of marking and in verbal engagement. This is also true in French lycees, where class sizes reach the mid-30s. Some of the better teachers use technology very effectively to allow students to self-mark (this works well for the self-motivated and disciplined student). The best way to remedy the lack of verbal engagement is to employ tutors (a friendly doctoral student can be a great solution).

Very small classes do less well in exams, as a broad generalization. Students, especially in humanities subjects but also in the sciences, need a critical number of peers for discussion. Otherwise they just hear the teacher plus another one or two people all year long - that's bad, not good. But it's certainly true that class sizes can be too large as well and grammars clearly can't afford to run extra classes/ employ additional staff, not at the moment.

Bobo you didn't answer the question about the substance of your help. Just curious. Were they Paris based students or UK based? If UK based why ask Paris for help - seems whimsical. What exactly can you do for UK based students, or even Parisien ones in a UK school system?

I respond to requests, goodbye. You ask "exactly" what I do, but I cannot answer that: it's not some sort of premeditated advice, packaged for sale. People recommend me to others, and quite often I decline as I don't think I can do what is being asked.

I'm not sure why people in the UK ask me rather than someone local.

Calendar I think you're over egging the independent schools 11+ exams. For some curious reason our village has always had a good handful of Etonians and there's no way on earth any of the ones I know well could have got into the grammar, however charming they are and however impressive their parents. Equally (small town stuff I know), there's a regular stream of DC who don't get offers from the grammar who make up the life blood of the two top local independents - I don't think I can recall any DC who took the grammar exam not getting a place at one or other of the indies, even the stronger of the two, which is really very good - not a St. Paul's, but certainly good. I realize that there are masses of properly outstanding DC who go to independent schools, but parents should be cautious about the flattery. Also, the 11+ tests used do require problem solving skills so I'm not sure why an independent using a similar paper should be regarded as different; it isn't.

Thanks Bobo. Well I can't think why either, given that last year you told us you hadn't had a single success on your books. That genuinely isn't meant to be rude, but it is a surprise. Mind you, there are 11+ tutors round here who people 'swear by' even though the most notorious has only ever got two DC in, despite years of plying her particular trade.

What do the UK parents pay you in - something less chic? :)

This thread is a eye opener. I never talked to any parent about ds1's secondary school. And never willl. It was the feeder for 90% of his primary and admittedly is a very good school, but still .....

In fact I have had discussions with other people at bbq's etc about their choices to other local schools, but it's all been positive. I don't know where all this nastiness and negativity comes from?

Goodbyestranger I'm talking about top London schools here not village schools. Probably a bit different. They have to use other methods to distinguish between candidates and they want to have children who will think outside the box and not just know how to crack codes over and over.

Success is surely only quantifiable in terms of happy students who do well on their courses and in life?

Oblomov- I suspect the question in your second paragraph is answered by your first.........

Calendar my goodness I'm glad that I don't live in London. What bumpkins the rest of us are and how little we know. That you for reminding me of my place.

My eldest six DC who have now left school got 56A and 14A between them at GCSE. At A level they got 15A and 12A (although some of those were taken before the advent of A* which would boost the tally). All six have gone to Oxford to do competitive subjects. And without the help of a top London (or any) independent.

I won't tempt fate by assuming my Y13 will get his predictions of 4A* nor my Y10 who's predicted a pretty much straight row of 9s next year (yes I know - controversial :)).

Apologies for that but honestly - the arrogance!

At least I live on a beach:)

Oblomov I've never had anything negative ever come my way either, in real life. I assume my community is just nicer.

Place marking. Fell asleep reading this last night and it's taken ages to find it again! Very interesting so far, diametrically opposed views re Oxbridge admissions.

Good grief goodbyestranger That's outstanding! Please tell us how you do it. I am seriously impressed!

Gosh, defensive and arrogant much? The independents you are describing are not the schools your kids went to so I don't know why you care. I am just pointing out that some schools that you presumably don't know well select candidates based on their critical thinking as well as other skills.
And I'm not wowed by your stats, your kids aren't he only ones who went to Oxford you know.

Calendar no, not in the least arrogant in fact. That's not a trait I share.

Well you shouldn't be completely unwowed because the DC do hold the known record for state school siblings attending Oxford :) (and equal the independent school record).

Obviously they're not the only kids at Oxford, duh.