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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

When parents are slagging off the local comp...

779 replies

Everyoneafter3 · 17/04/2017 08:43

I've posted before about my concerns over the local secondary, which, thanks to comments on this board and an excellent recent Ofsted, are very much allayed. I had a very good read of school newsletters etc and am much happier. Dd1 (Y4) is musically gifted and will also audition for a specialist music school.

The area in which we live is very affluent: many children round here go to fee-paying independent schools. These dc are going to school and telling my dd (and others) that the local secondary is rubbish ("my mum and dad say..."). One particularly stupid parent has said at home that "no child of mind will set foot in x school" which of course is coming back home with our dd.

Dd1 has now got it into her head that the local school is terrible, that she's really upset to go to not a good school, that she wishes we weren't poor (we're not! But no, we can't afford independent school fees without having to sacrifice other stuff we prioritise as a family). She's been researching exam results and all sorts.

For our part we've said well look at any local school she'd like to, although as we live across the road from the school in question it'd be unlikely that she'd get in.

I'm heartily sick of parents telling their dc how awful the local school is. It's simply not fair. My dc won't receive a 'lesser' education. They aren't going to a 'rubbish' school. If this continues I'm tempted to speak to their current primary school tbh. What else can I do? I've told dd to not listen, we've looked at the school website, talked about results (!) but I'm at a loss.

OP posts:
goodbyestranger · 21/04/2017 19:48

Bristol Poly from 1970 then UWE from 1992, according to Wiki. Same difference.

goodbyestranger · 21/04/2017 19:50

Oh right, in that case someone else was wrong on the earlier handbag thread. That's odd. Why would someone say you went to a place you never had a connection with. Their bad :)

BoboChic · 21/04/2017 19:50

You are clearly far more knowledgeable about these things than me!

goodbyestranger · 21/04/2017 19:52

Well no, I just remember trivial details from eg handbag threads (and generally!). It's a bad habit of mine, always has been. I remember almost everything actually. It's useful sometimes and irritating at others.

BoboChic · 21/04/2017 19:55

Well then, let's clear your confusion up for good, from the horse's mouth Smile

goodbyestranger · 21/04/2017 19:57

Sure - weight of my mind really :) Thanks.

Alyosha · 21/04/2017 19:57

Ontopof - why do I insist that NLCS/HABs/SHHS is a backup for HBS? Because it is, for many parents. Of course some parents don't even bother with the grammars, fine. But if you are applying to a grammar there is a fair chance you are also applying to the private schools too.

Why don't they all get A*s? Good question! Grammar schools have awful value added and HBS is no exception. They get almost as good results as NLCS but due to their vastly more selective intake they should be thrashing them.

It's probably down to an element of coasting - they think they're doing well enough.

If you define a set of girls which are the top 20% in the country, we would know they would be the daughters of those who have degrees themselves; those who care deeply about their daughters' educations; those who are highly ambitious for them.

Just applying for a grammar school in a non-grammar borough guarantees you are in this group.

After just 5% of the top 20% get in, then yes, I think you can say they are the top 1%.

Alyosha · 21/04/2017 19:59

Well, apart from the degrees thing. That's probably just an 80% probability.

Of course in terms of raw, "real ability" that paragraph means nothing. But that paragraph means everything in terms of how we currently measure ability (A levels, GCSEs, SATs). HBS is the top state school in the country. So at least in that respect you must admit it is in the top 0.5%!

goodbyestranger · 21/04/2017 20:00

Eh? I mean I peaked at maths aged 11 I think, but even so....

Alyosha · 21/04/2017 20:01

Even compared to Independents it's in the top 1% of all schools no?

24000 secondary schools, it's a top 240 school...ergo...it's a top 1% school. In fact I think it's in the top 0.5% of all schools.

Alyosha · 21/04/2017 20:04

Goodbye...

100 average girls.

20 of them apply to HBS. Now we know this puts them in the group of people who care an awful, awful lot about education. Ergo given the way we currently measure attainment, they will be the top attainers (attainment is sadly very correlated with parental attainment & involvement).

Only 1 in 23 girls who apply get into HBS. So of that already top 20% group only 1 in 20 get in. So the one that gets in is 1 in 100 - a 1%-er.

There are lots of holes in this methodology but it's as good as any to demonstrate the high attainment of HBS intake.

user7214743615 · 21/04/2017 20:05

I suggest a basic course in statistics and a course discussing regression to the mean in genetics. Almost every line involves flawed logic and misuse of statistics.

goodbyestranger · 21/04/2017 20:08

I'm kind of glad you said that user615!

Alyosha · 21/04/2017 20:14

user615, well as I have said - repeatedly - there is no way to measure "real" intelligence aside from administering a constantly changing WISC or something to every pupil.

However given the way we currently view attainment - through the lens of results - and we know that results are highly correlated with parental background, then I don't think it's crazy to say that the top 5% of an already privileged cohort are the top 1% or 0.5% nationally.

Note, this does not mean they are the top 1% of people that you know, or of the kids at your school. Just that they are the top 1% nationally.

Ontopofthesunset · 21/04/2017 20:20

But....but....but..... There are so many things wrong with that. Let's start from your assumption that the girls that apply are all in the top 20% of ability. That's wrong for a start. And then it follows that all the rest is.

Clavinova · 21/04/2017 20:33

Alyosha -
Part of your argument is that HBS has a much larger sixth form than NLCS and should have more Oxbridge offers than NLCS because of this - government stats for year 13 say they have similar sized year groups at A level. HBS clearly state in their A level results for 2016 that 123 pupils sat A levels - that's 30 extra not 50. The NLCS admissions page states they take 40 girls at 4+, 8/10 at 7+, 60 at 11+ and 20 16+ which more or less ties in with the gov. stats of 126 for 2016.

Most of your stats are just guesswork.

No, HBS don't take the IB - 45 points for the IB is very impressive.

Alyosha · 21/04/2017 20:38

Why would it be wrong that they are in the top 20% of ability (as currently understood).

We know that parental attainment correlates strongly with the attainment of children. We also know that parental involvement with education is a hugely important factor in future attainment.

So if you are a parent considering a grammar school for your child (or a private school, for that matter), you are very likely to a) have a level of attainment yourself and b) care a lot about your child's education.

Those two factors together will propel you to the top 20% of ability. Why do I think this? Because I imagine almost all the pupils that apply for a grammar school, not just those that get in, will go on to get the english baccalaureate. Just 23% currently achieve this.

Now you can argue whether getting GCSEs in the English Baccalaureate is an accurate way of assessing ability etc. etc. but as we currently assess attainment it is a good measure.

Alyosha · 21/04/2017 20:42

HBS also clearly state on their website they take an extra 40-50 girls for 6th form...they currently have yr 7 intake of 93, increasing to 106 I believe, so their 6th form is around 143 girls.

www.hbschool.org.uk/374/admissions/year-12

Maybe they're lying?

Also your stats on NLCS have a big flaw - lots of the girls will leave at 16+ to go for Westminster or other mixed 6th forms. YOu can't just add up the numbers.

Alyosha · 21/04/2017 20:42

Although I realise that is exactly what I have just done for HBS!

Perhaps someone who actually knows both schools can tell us.

A level cohort info isn't great due to resits etc.

Clavinova · 21/04/2017 20:44

Actually, grammar schools have excellent added value/Progress 8 according to gov. stats.

Tiffin Girls' has a very nice graph if you click on their destinations page (scroll down) which illustrates that medicine and science degree choices dominate;
www.tiffingirls.org/Our-School/Sixth-Form.aspx

Alyosha · 21/04/2017 20:46

The leavers' destination page at NLCS definitely implies the 2016 gruop is considerably smaller than HBS. It includes all 2016 leavers but doesn't give numbers who are studying art.

Alyosha · 21/04/2017 20:51

Clavinova, what makes you say their value added is good? Nationally only about 1/3 of a grade added vs. comprehensives, and if that comp is a top 25% comp (like many in London), the benefit disappears completely:

epi.org.uk/analysis/grammar-schools-8-conclusions-data/

I.e. every girl at HBS/Tiffin would have probably got the same results at a top 25% comp.

Scandalous when you consider how much easier it is to teach to a higher level in these grammars.

They should be wiping the floor with the indies due to their intake.

Clavinova · 21/04/2017 20:54

Presumably state schools are supposed to give reasonably accurate figures to the government?
www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/138051?tab=ks5-16-to-18

goodbyestranger · 21/04/2017 20:54

Alyosha do you understand Progress 8 or Value Added? Why do you suppose it might be harder for selective schools to score well?

Clavinova · 21/04/2017 20:56

Progress 8 for HBS;
www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/138051

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