New grammars by 2020 which will exclude 90% of local kids

[noblegiraffe]

What an excellent use of scarce public funding, to build schools that most kids can't access instead of using it to build good comprehensives to improve the life-chances of everyone.

Word from the government (who appear to be ploughing ahead with the proposals before they've even published the consultation results) is that new grammars will only take the top 10% rather than the top 25% of kids. God knows where they've got the evidence that the top 10% of kids require a different school but they're certainly not sharing it with us.

It is also beyond me how making grammar schools even more elite will help with the promised social mobility agenda, when previous discussions were about how the pass grade would be needed to be lowered to increase the number of disadvantaged kids gaining access.

And if you were in favour of a grammar school opening in your area because you thought your kid would get in, how sure are you now? How much less tempting is a grammar school opening up if your kid is more likely to be sent to the other school?

In addition, expect to see furious threads in the near future from parents whose local school of choice has converted to a grammar and their kid is now being bussed to another school in the MAT that they wouldn't have chosen for them.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38906594

Borders Maidenhead Council (TM's constituency) are the ones trying hardest at the moment - they have long abandoned the social mobility line and are now claiming that it's so kids going to the grammars in next door Bucks don't have so far to travel. There doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm in the population, probably because people who want grammars can get to them in Bucks or Slough and would like to preserve the Maidenhead comps (which are almost all good) as a back up. Milton Keynes Council has also muttered about a grammar, probably with the same motivation as Maidenhead. I believe there's been mutterings somewhere round Hertforshire?

Meopham School actually held a ballot on possible conversion to becoming a grammar but apparently the result was 50/50 so they are not progressing further. Many felt it was a publicity stunt. As the school is in Kent there are grammars available anyway and apparently the nearest non-selective with places is miles away so I suspect its unlikely the school would have been allowed to convert anyway.

The debate about middle-class parents and grammars above has been interesting. I believe there is a definite pecking order in the selective counties around the grammars, the Aylesbury single-sex are more prestigious than mixed Henry Floyd for instance.

It should be noted that the government case on the popularity of grammars is based entirely on the fact that people try very hard to get into grammars where they exist. I think by now they have even convinced themselves that this means everyone is desperate for grammars per se.

Select committee report due on Tuesday

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/judge-grammar-schools-their-effect-all-pupils-mps-argue

It sounds like it will not support government position.

West Sussex Heads are in open rebellion (entry on 10th February)

www.facebook.com/WorthLessWestSussex/

I think future of new grammars will depend on how far Headteachers rebellion will spread and whether the action can successfully pressurise wavering Tory MPs.

flying,

I seem to remember that the 'best' school in Skem is simple selective by religion, rather than by ability?

I would absolutely agree, though, that the variation in educational and life outcomes across the country is down to much more than the existence or not of grammars - huge socio-economic differences, and in particular whether avenues to improved employment prospects through education a) exist and b) are acceptable to the local community in terms of 'being for people like us' have an enormous impact on outcomes.

It will be a double whammy for the kids from non-aspirational communities if they "fail" at 11 and are sent to secondary moderns. They will have more of a chance if they go to a comprehensive with the full range of abilities and top sets to aspire to.

Four

I think you have a point about the comps that are good and can offer a wide range of levels to suit all, but unfortunately they don't exist in all areas.
Ours vary a little, some offer an academic route and a less academic route
Others offer predominantly a none academic route.
We found it rare for a school to offer a broad wide range of options.

Fourmantent,

The issue, and I don't know how to get around this one, is that in such communities, there ISN'T a school with the full range of abilities - because any aspirational parents do as TalkinPeace does and sends their child to school outside the community. Such parents sending their child to a grammar instead isn't actually going to make a huge difference in that particular scenario.

It is in the 'more mixed' communities where the comprehensives genuinely do have the full range of abilities that the effect of these 'skim off the top' grammars will be the greatest.

So in Skem, say, parents who did send their children to the faith school (which is the best of the options available) may then send their children to a grammar if they can (or continue to send them to the faith school). It doesn't help those children who are left with the remaining school/s.

I hear what you are saying but a grammar in such an area can only make things even worse for those left behind. Some may be skimmed off to something better but the majority will be in an even worse situation with all the non aspiration being underlined with bells on by the failure to pass the 11+.

Unless the 11+ becomes compulsory rather than opt-in, many children fro non-aspirational, chaotic etc families will not even take the 11+, let alone pass it.

Also, unless the proposal includes free buses to the grammar school, many parents will not enter their children, or not accept places, because they cannot afford transport (akin to the 'golden age of the 1950s' which we are supposed to hark back to, when many, many working class 11+ passers did not take up places because they could not afford the uniform or equipment)

(A fear / attitude so deeply entrenched that my beloved grandparents, from extremely deprived backgrounds themselves, bought me my secondary scholl uniform when I got a 100% scholarship - and DBro his bus pass when he went to a sixth form outside the county. Although they knew, rationally, that it possibly wasn't the make-or-break thing it had been for them, it was still an absolutely deep-seated fear that somehow we wouldn't be able to go unless we had our uniform / bus pass bought for us)

cantkeepawayforever the 11+ in Bucks is opt out - always has been. All children in Bucks primary schools are automatically entered.

We live in Bucks - my children are in a very sought after grammar, are very happy and achieving highly.

There is always a lot of nonsense talked about grammar schools. Bucks is fully selective- we have no comps. Abolishing the grammars nationally would be the best solution.

Olly, I do know that in some areas the Grammar tests are opt-out - but I also know that is not replicated across the country, and I don't know whether that, and free transport for passers, is part of the current proposal.

I agree that "Abolishing the grammars nationally would be the best solution." - and ploughing e.g. remaining foundation / endowment funds [which are what enabled some residual grammars to remain in existence when most were abolished] into all schools equally.

There's no free transport per se - the councils are obliged to provide free transport (if you live outside the statutory walking distance) to your closest school. My children are at their catchment school. A non catchment upper (secondary modern) is 30m closer to my house - we don't get free transport.

The one thing that the Bucks grammars do exceptionally well is all the extra curricular stuff - it is truly outstanding- this is what should be available in all schools

cantkeep
500 of us locally send our kids over the border to the other two schools (the local school has 400 empty spaces)
but the point is that ANY child can get in up there
rich, poor, thick, clever, atheist, fundamentalist
they all get in because only postcode counts

so the comps up the way are actually more mixed than their catchment

Grammars or ANY sort of selection would penalise those who most need options

olly
catchments round here are up to 11 miles across - free buses are essential to people in the villages so they pretty much HAVE to use the catchment school

Talkin,

But how many - and which - families still send their children to your local school, because it's easier / cheaper / they really don't care that the education is worse?

I'm absolutely not saying that grammars are the answer to schools klike your local one - what i am saying is that the children who do go to your local school will be no further disadvantaged by the presence of a grammar school than they are by the current situation. in fact, ironically, if one of the schools across the border did turn into a grammar school, the local school might actually get a wider range of children attending it, because those who currently cross the boundary to a non-selective school would no longer be able to do so.

Don't get me wrong, I oppose both the grammars that exist, and the proposed ones too. However, the effects in specific localities are not always predictable!

Essex here.

Our local grammar is full of girls commuting in for an hr every morning by train from London. Our kids walk past and go to the local comps

Ta1kinPeace are you in a grammar area? I am - my kids qualified for grammar and are at their catchment school. They get their on tge school bus which runs through our village.

My point was that your council is only obliged to give you free transport to the closest school - irrespective of whether it is grammar or secondary modern (we have no comps) - a non catchment, secondary modern is deemed 30meters closer to my house then the catchment grammar my children attend hence I pay for their transport.

I say this because this is the reality of living in a grammar area - the test is opt out not in, the council say my children are best suited to a grammar education but they will only pay transport to the closest school. Ironically there is a council school bus to their grammar (which I pay for them to go on - tge council abolished all public transport to our village years ago) - if I chose to take up theirs offer of the free transport to the secondary modern there is no bus to get there - I asked how they would transport my children and was told they would lay on a taxi service!

There not their!

Olly
I live near a county boundary.
There is a bus to the good comp 4 miles away that picks up at the driveway of the bad comp - because the country boundary is in the middle of the road ...........

cantkeep
The local school is a sponsored academy
Only parents who just do not care send their kids there
The Poles (of whom we have lots) send their kids anywhere but ....
That school will not improve so long as it stays in the Chain its with

Selective schools just add to complication and administration
and divert funds from front line teaching

My daughter goes to a grammar school...no paid tutoring...single parent yet she got in easily.
All children should be pushed to reach their potential whether high or low ability. Both sets of children are just as important. All parents just want the best for their children ...hopefully.

All children should be pushed to reach their potential whether high or low ability.
Absolutely
the vote last summer was driven by the lower skilled feeling left behind
and then the Government wants to bring in a policy that will educate the high fliers and leave behind the low skilled
leaving us still relying on immigrants for years to come
except we'll have thrown them out

"Only parents who just do not care send their kids there "

And actually, morally, those are he children who the country as a whole should be seeking to help, by ensuring that they get the best possible education.

And Olly demonstrates one reason why the demography of grammars reflects those that can afford bus fares, maybe at £20 per week or more.

MixedGrill £570 per child per year to be precise!

To be fair my children's school (Sur William Borlase's in Marlow) pulls from a very small geographical area - its catchment doesn't go further then 5 miles I think and this current year 7 they offered catchment siblings and then catchment to 3 miles.