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Secondary education

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Original poster

New grammars by 2020 which will exclude 90% of local kids

518 replies

noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 15:47

What an excellent use of scarce public funding, to build schools that most kids can't access Hmm instead of using it to build good comprehensives to improve the life-chances of everyone.

Word from the government (who appear to be ploughing ahead with the proposals before they've even published the consultation results) is that new grammars will only take the top 10% rather than the top 25% of kids. God knows where they've got the evidence that the top 10% of kids require a different school but they're certainly not sharing it with us.

It is also beyond me how making grammar schools even more elite will help with the promised social mobility agenda, when previous discussions were about how the pass grade would be needed to be lowered to increase the number of disadvantaged kids gaining access.

And if you were in favour of a grammar school opening in your area because you thought your kid would get in, how sure are you now? How much less tempting is a grammar school opening up if your kid is more likely to be sent to the other school?

In addition, expect to see furious threads in the near future from parents whose local school of choice has converted to a grammar and their kid is now being bussed to another school in the MAT that they wouldn't have chosen for them.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38906594

OP posts:
Original poster
noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 20:31

It's only three years away. Can anything move that fast?

If there's one thing that we've learned from Michael Gove's reforms of GCSEs and A-levels is that if there is a general election coming up, then massive changes will be rushed through to that deadline, and hang the disastrous consequences.

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HPFA · 09/02/2017 20:43

This whole thing is becoming just garbage. The government told us this was all about social mobility. Now they're supposed to be giving us super-selectives which are the ones that people tutor for years to get their kids into. The chance of any able child from any sort of poor background getting into them is infinitesimally small. So what's the justification now? Are they going to bother coming up with one?
Incidentally, the newsletter publishing this actually devoted most of its space to moaning about funding. Didn't it occur to any of these super-brain GS Heads that the £240 million for expansion could be helpful in ensuring proper funding for all, including grammar schools?

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 21:09

Angela Rayner (Shadow Ed Sec) tweeted earlier: "Unbelievable grammar school heads have been given inside track on the Govt plans while our state schools&academies are left out in the cold."

And she's got a bloody good point. Outrageous that the government has been holding meetings with grammar school heads about the proposals - possibly the only people in education who might be in favour of grammars because they already work in them - to discuss a massive upheaval to the comprehensive system. Cowardly and dishonest. The consultation was to give the impression that they actually might pay attention to anyone else's views. Clearly not.

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BertrandRussell · 09/02/2017 21:13

"No the reason you are not happy because you want 100% of children to all get the same education."

Oh, that is such bollocks. Of course nobody thinks 100% of children should get exactly the same education!

flyingwithwings · 09/02/2017 21:20

Noble i see you would like an education secretary that has no 'academic qualifications ! That is what is unbelievable a 'Shadow Education Secretary without even GCSEs ' I wonder why the Labour party are a rabble .

Angela Raynor reminds me of the girl , you would do everything to keep your daughter aware from at school. The bully that would entice your daughter to 'WAG' school and go down to the local shops for a fag or to rob for her .

I really feel sorry for the likes of 'Lucy Powell' that her position has been replaced by the adult version of ' Lauren Tate'.

A bully that only knows to 'Shout' out pre -prepared quotes.

Such is her lack of knowledge, she would not have even known what a grammar school was until told what one is and the Labour Party's position on them.

flyingwithwings · 09/02/2017 21:20

Away from..

HPFA · 09/02/2017 21:23

Noblegiraffe Everything about this is so wrong. OK, I'm anti-selection anyway but I hope even if I wasn't I would recognise that that this is an incoherent, illogical and unintelligent mess. ( Been reading too many Michaela essays) Effectively, the govt is saying " we want grammars even though we can't actually give you any good reason why". Dreadful.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 21:24

Oh fly I rather have the feeling I've had words put into my mouth by you before, under a different username. Do piss off.

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HPFA · 09/02/2017 21:28

flying If Angela Rayner had been to a grammar school you and other grammar supporters would be hailing her as a shining example of social mobility.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 21:29

I agree, HPFA. The government tried the whole social mobility thing and it clearly didn't wash so they've just abandoned it. The main objection that they can see people might care about is turning local schools into sink schools which is why I think they've watered the selection down randomly to 10%.

But they don't actually have a positive argument in favour apart from the whole Brexit harking back to a bygone age thing. The best thing they could say about the consultation was that it wasn't overwhelmingly negative. Just hugely negative then.

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BertrandRussell · 09/02/2017 21:30

You have obviously never heard Angela Raynor speak. You are just making offensive judgements based on her class and the fact that she was a teenage mother. Rather shocking.

gillybeanz · 09/02/2017 21:32

I think it's brilliant and will provide social mobility to those who need it the most, that isn't the mc children.
If you lived where we do with no good schools or chances for the majority of children you'd be glad.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 21:34

will provide social mobility

This isn't true. We know it isn't true. Grammar schools already don't provide social mobility, upping the entry requirements will only make the situation worse.

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flyingwithwings · 09/02/2017 21:37

For the record i was born in Ashton -Under- Lyne and spent the first 8 years of my life there before my parents moved south for a better life !

I have cousins that still live in Ashton , hence my interest in a town that unfortunately has not advanced in the 36 years since my family left.

gillybeanz · 09/02/2017 21:37

Sorry, just noticed it was you noble

Can you explain why it won't provide social mobility in wc areas with no opportunities for the brightest.
I'm sad this has come too late for my dd friend who will never see her potential. She has no parental encouragement apart from making sure she completes her homework Grin she needs no encouragement to do this and is often found trying to find advanced Maths papers.
Her mother thinks/ advises her to become a childcare worker or hairdresser.
Nothing wrong with this but she's years above in Maths.

gillybeanz · 09/02/2017 21:39

fly

Same area, my love. I totally agree.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 21:40

She has no parental encouragement

That is one of the problems. You need to apply for a grammar school place and sit a test. Parents who think their child should become a hairdresser aren't going to be rushing to fill out application forms.

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gillybeanz · 09/02/2017 21:47

But do you not think that children and parents will see the importance when the schools are actually running.
Children here don't aspire to great things, they think it isn't for them, that this is their lot.
I know there are some good comps, I trust what people say on here, but when you live in an area famous for it's lack of opportunities and aspiration it's hard to change attitudes.
Surely grammar schools would do this wouldn't they.
I do know that the present system of grammar has it's issues in places down south, but as there are good and bad comps, could there be some areas that would benefit from grammars.
There are few rich people in our area, they tend to live in Cheshire rather than Wigan Grin, so not a place for private schools with good bursaries neither.

HPFA · 09/02/2017 21:48

gilly I don't think you've had the chance to look at the whole thread yet. The government has now abandoned any pretence that this is about social mobility. Super-selectives may have a theoretical justification in serving the needs of a particular group of the ultra-gifted (I'm not sure they are needed in practice but leave that aside) but they certainly cannot in any way contribute to social mobility.

I think if I lived in your area I'd want better schools for everyone, I wouldn't want money being wasted on a school which will be populated exclusively by a tiny number who would otherwise go private and/or have parents willing and able to pay for coaching or the cultural capital to do it themselves.

flyingwithwings · 09/02/2017 21:50

Thank you Gilly. You understand as well as i do that the parents who are advising their children to become hairdressers are doing so because that is the best option available.

It is also quite 'demeaning' to suggest such parents given just a sniff of a chance of a better education would not grab it with both hands.

It is also very wrong to think that genuine 'working' class Labour voters in Northern towns would not aspire or move heaven and earth for their child to attend a grammar school given the chance.

Hey i suspect a high number of Northern Working class Labour supporters would think a grammar school in their town was a god send.

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2017 21:51

Surely nobody is naive enough to think kids get into grammar school with no parental involvement?

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 21:52

We already know they don't, gilly. There are loads of grammars around the country and most of them are unusually short of disadvantaged kids.

Grammar school places are hoovered up by prep school kids and the tutored kids of the better-off, from neighbouring counties if necessary. You read on here about kids with horrendous commutes to get to school.

The social mobility aspect is a failure. To suggest that it might be different with new grammars is to ignore the overwhelming evidence that it won't be. The government have even abandoned that line and are now talking about social reform instead.

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notangelinajolie · 09/02/2017 21:55

I live in area where Grammar Schools never went away. Many out of area kids travel miles to attend. I welcome education authorities in other areas opening new Grammar Schools, it will give the local kids a chance.

HPFA · 09/02/2017 21:55

Another one who knows Ashton here!! Can you tell me how the new Oldham grammar school will avoid being filled by those who would otherwise have gone to Hulme Grammar or Bluecoats? Will there be a means test of everyone sitting the 11+? I imagine the good parents of Saddleworth will love the idea of not paying Hulme fees but that's hardly social mobility is it.

flyingwithwings · 09/02/2017 21:55

Not in towns our areas where they are no Prep schools, nor where the average wage is under £300 PW . The tutors have tended to go out of business in such towns....