Is this punishment 'fair enough' and normal practice?

[youarenotkiddingme]

So a child in yr 7 is walking through school with friends.

See's older pupils wearing something non uniform policy. It's very obviously not in keeping with the school. The school have a massive image complex and drum it into the pupils.

Pupils makes a comment to friends about how come they get away with it, they don't like the image and then says it makes them look like (but not racist/ disablist or anything)

Teacher overheard the comment (or rather the context of conversation) and pupil out on harshest detention they dish out for using an unkind word.

I'm being vague as don't want to be outed.

But I'm wondering if it's normal to punish children so harshly for a comment made in passing to friends in a corridor?
(Teacher admits they didn't actually hear word first time and only know exactly what was said as pupil asked and she told her)

It's interesting how you mention the strictness of the school uniform as if that's an excuse for unpleasant behaviour. It's good to see that the school seem to care about manners as well as their image.

I love the fact some people assume that a) the child is mine and b) i think it's a harsh punishment.

I am being vague because it's not my child. I had another parent tell me the story and said they felt it harsh as child was just stating a fact to her friend. Not actually calling pupils name to their face. I would consider the term used as possibly derogatory but nothing I haven't heard used by other parents to describe their own kids when dressed the same!

I was actually unsure as could see both schools POV and that of parent. The reason I see the parents POV is that the school seems extremely harsh on yr 7 about things they aren't enforcing in upper years. I assume it's start on them in yr 7 and pick your battles with the ones leaving in next 18 months so they slowly enforce the new level of strictness until it's embedded?

It's causing a lot of friction between pupils though.

But the child was punished for name calling, not a uniform infringement? It's a completely different issue

Also; the child wasn't just stating a fact. They look like xxxx, is not a "fact". It's an unsolicited and very rude opinion.

Echoing molly what was the word if it was 'factual' does the child and their parent believe this word which was bad enough for a detention?

I have year 7 - they are really impressionable and I think we have a duty to make expectations clear early on. It is hard to judge the circumstance without details, but I'd trust their judgement.

Well no - the parent thinks it's harsh!

I listened and I'm very much there are consequences to actions type person. My own DS gets short shrift for complaining about getting caught out!

However, I surprised myself on this occasion by actually seeing where the parent was coming from.

School is spending inordinate amounts of time and energy in teaching these yr7 that they need to wear a certain length skirt, inappropriateness of short skirts etc etc. Harsh punishments for uniform infringements and in one case (another parent I know) DC was given a baby wipe to remove a bad if concealer she'd put on a spot because 'make up isn't allowed'. It had been discovered by make up inspection by HOY.
Yet the upper years are allowed to wear old style which they can and do roll up! (Some shorter than their blazers!)

So this girl has really taken on board the views the school have given. She's actually not a bad kid - I've known her for a long long time. She's actually quite quiet but obviously hears all the discussion in school about the unfairness between the upper/lower etc.

Her friend commented on the length of skirts and that you couldn't even tell one pupil was wearing a skirt.

The girl then said she knows and doesn't like the look anyway as it looks really tarty.

The teacher heard and asked what she said and then have the 1 hour HT detention.

The girl is mortified. She's not a bad kid. She didn't mean to cause offence.

So whilst I can see why the school felt it necessary to intervene to teach her appropriate use of language and effects of language in public I found myself agreeing it seemed harsh.

But then I know then very well and wondered if perhaps my emotions were getting in the way too!

Fwiw my friend didn't complain to school or refuse the DT. She didn't discuss it being harsh in front of her DD. It was a convo we had alone over coffee.

Tart / tarty is a horrible misogynistic phrase. If I were a teacher I'd come down in it like a ton of bricks.

And why wouldn't we assume it was your child? You are terribly clever catching us out like that aren't you?

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable punishment to me.

So she said the other girl looked really tarty because of the rolled up skirt, well deserved punishment then, that kind of attitude needs to be confronted and changed.

I wasn't attempting to 'catch someone out'. I just have a situation and asked opinions.

I was surprised at my own reaction (which would usually be tough shite!) and was just engaging outside opinion.

My own ds isn't at this school. His school is very strict but at least it seems to be anyone and everyone not just the lower school!

The reason I see the parents POV is that the school seems extremely harsh on yr 7 about things they aren't enforcing in upper years

Those are two different issues. The detention was given for saying a horrible misogynistic word, not for a uniform infringement.

Strict uniform rules have nothing to do with it, it was an awful thing to say in any circumstances. Your friend might want to look at her own attitude regarding people's appearances if she thinks that comment wasn't too bad.

So the parents agreed that due to rolled up skirt she looked like a tart/tarty going back to the 'fact' comment?!
Reminds me of doing this at school! Seems we didn't mind looking like barrels with all the bulk of the skirt rolled around our waists as long as skirt was tiny!- rite of passage almost at my school!

The punishment isn't for a uniform infringement, it's for make an unnecessary and uncalled for comment about someone's appearance. Strict punishment therefore required and should be supported. Does not matter whether they are Y7 or Y11, you cannot make comments like that. Glad to see a school dealing with it appropriately.

I think the school is encouraging people to judge one another by going on and on about clothes and makeup. But I am not a fan of uniforms at all, so I would think that, wouldn't I?

The school is encouraging a rebellious attitude by enforcing rules unfairly. Students hate this kind of unfairness.

There is a big difference between actual bullying and a year 7 kid making an offensive comment about a much older child. I think it is important to have a conversation with the year 7 girl and make sure she understands why words like tarty are unacceptable, but I don't know if the punishment is helpful.

School was absolutely spot on. Tarty/tart is an outright insult and I fail to see how the girl didn't mean to offend anyone by saying it. Maybe she'll think twice before making judgy, snide comments behind someones back next time.

Is tarty really bad? It's used quite a lot around here. Clearly there's an issue with the use of the word and this threads clearly opened my mind to that.

I agree that the issues are separate as such but in my friends DD mind they aren't iyswim?

School are teaching the yr 7 about appropriate clothing, adhering to uniform. Skirt length etc. They are punishing them harshly for misdemeanours related to this - it's the kneel down and skirt must touch the floor rule. Yet it's not enforced in upper years so there's a lot of discussion in school with regards this.

That's why they were noting and discussing others clothing.

It's certainly an interesting thread and has openend my eyes somewhat!

I agree with claraschu a detention teaches nothing. The parent and teacher should point out that you treat others the way you wish to be treated and move on with life. Detentions are the most ridiculous power triping-old fashioned waste of time and all they do is create rifts between teachers, schools, pupils and parents.

I do agree that the school should be enforcing the rules throughout the school - not allowing y11 to do as they please! Sounds like pretty poor practice. Our y11s are trickier and we don't want to escalate up the behaviour policy as readily when they are in the middle of GCSEs and little time left, but they can't have completely different rules!

I think it's a disproportionate punishment. Teacher could have said firmly that it was a horrible and unkind word and that would have had an effect. It's not that bad anyway.

Dd's school is also incredibly harsh on y7s and then relaxed with the older kids.

Yes, tarty is a hangover from the days when women could be blamed for being raped.

"Well did you see what she was wearing?"

It's best not to ever call anyone tarty or similar for wearing what they want to wear.

She really said 'tarty'? What a funny word for an 11 year old to use. Where I live the word they would tend to use is 'slag'.

Anyway, it's not acceptable for her to make insulting comments about other students. She needs to understand that the school policy doesn't justify her being unkind.