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Secondary education

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White British pupils underperforming because of parents

266 replies

noblegiraffe · 04/04/2016 11:55

White British pupils are underperforming at GCSE and it's because of the parents claims a report out today:
www.theguardian.com/education/2016/apr/04/white-children-falling-behind-other-groups-at-gcse

So what do families from other cultures do differently?

White British pupils underperforming because of parents
OP posts:
RaskolnikovsGarret · 06/04/2016 18:20

The Chinese (not well off, first gen parents) girls at my daughters' super selective London grammar work astonishingly hard. Academically they excel, two instruments grade 8 by year 7, maths GCSE by year 8. On top of homework, they are members of the National Youth Orchestra, the netball team, head of the debate clubs, attend tennis camps etc.

Just thinking about it exhausts me, and worries me that we are not doing enough for our mixed heritage daughters. But they would genuinely be exhausted by such a timetable. My daughters work very hard with no pressure from us, and get very good grades, and do a respectable number of extra curricular activities, but the Chinese girls are in a different league completely. And I am not generalising at all, they are all amazing. I am sure they will all get into Oxbridge - mine don't even want to go there!

GeorgeTheThird · 06/04/2016 18:21

Yes, ok, you're right. But so much of it is a culture if "I can't" and " it doesn't matter". It seems to me that a lot of people just don't try. But I was over-egging it a bit.

Sadik · 06/04/2016 19:27

"If you were to ask the same parents to shell out for books or put in extra if their child was struggling in maths they'd laugh."
I'm not sure that's necessarily true (or maybe it's different in Wales?). Parents might not have a shelf of books at home, but if eg a letter goes home from the head teacher suggesting doing X or Y, I think it really gets treated as the word of God by a lot of parents I know, and generally those who've had fewer educational opportunities themselves.

MrsGuyOfGisbo · 06/04/2016 19:42

In Italy (for example) you get a list of textbooks at the beginning of the school your and - you go and buy them for the DC... ( Can also get second hand). So parents buy them.
Imagine the squealing if that happened here Sad

defunctedusername · 06/04/2016 20:06

Its not a big mystery, white working class parents born in the UK just dont value education, so neither do their children. This generation grew up on Gordons tax credits and it became quite a cushy lifestyle not to work, you dont need any education to do that. The safety net of the state means there is no incentive to learn. One of the reasons we need so many immigrants to come into this country is to do the minimum wage jobs that white working class people now look down on because its more lucrative to be on benefits.

HazyMazy · 06/04/2016 20:30

Unforeseen consequence of a generous welfare state.

However the welfare state is shrinking, the population is going to be forced to change.

We aren't a rich country, we have little or no industry, or minerals, just banking education etc that we sell.

roundaboutthetown · 06/04/2016 20:36

What a load of bollocks. Not all "working class people" are the same and not all of those who don't "hit targets" at 16 go on to live on benefits. It's not as if you need to hit targets to obtain a minimum wage job.

roundaboutthetown · 06/04/2016 20:38

And you are even more likely to turn your nose up at a minimum wage job if you did hit targets...

NewLife4Me · 06/04/2016 20:42

I don't agree about the welfare comments tbh, nor tax credits.
We have had tax credits since it came in and I gave up work to be available for my children, to educate them and provide what they needed.
I have supported for over 20 years now, bought books, paid for music lessons, sports accessories and clubs, concert tickets and transport.
Travelled round the country accompanying my dd, buying music and instruments, the list is endless.
I have done this because I see it as my role and even when we were really broke when first setting out the children had books.
I'd go to church sales, car boots etc and we had shelves full of books, including all the classics.
You don't need lots of money, but you do need to prioritise.
The way forward has to be education for parents.
I saw the most deprived children from a sink estate improve Literacy and numeracy to great results, the school got parents in and taught them, then they could support their children and began to see the importance of education.
But services like this were soon cut. Sad

YaySirNaySir · 06/04/2016 22:10

DS 16 was not a high achiever aged 5 due to a medical condition which meant he missed out a lot on his foundation years- all nursery, most of reception and half of year one. With our help and some very good teachers he is now on track to getting 5 possibly 6 GCSE's at C/B. It has taken a lot of effort all round to get to this stage. Our families have been supportive too. I can't imagine how people can just give up on their DC's education and not support them as much as they can. It's really sad.

defunctedusername · 06/04/2016 22:11

NewLife4Me - you gave up work once you got tax credits, you helped your family and educated your children. Unfortunately not everyone did that, they took the money and used it to entrench their position and so started the culture where educating your children was no longer a parents job, ... its became the states responsibility.

Woodhill · 06/04/2016 22:20

Not sure about piano aspect. My gps had one in living room of flat plus table and sofa. Dad was self taught. Other gps had one too, out of tune. We don't have one as I agree they take up space but dsis has parents one as she plays too.

user789653241 · 06/04/2016 22:42

My ds's school hold classes for parents to teach them how to help children at home. Not many parents turn up, and most of the ones who turn up has children who are above average. Parents of children who really need their help never seems to bother.(I may be wrong, they may not be able to, due to work, etc.) Always less than 1/4 of parents turn up. I felt really sorry for the teachers who organised it. I agree, they have to change the attitude of parents first, if they want to bring the level of attainment of children.

NewLife4Me · 06/04/2016 22:44

Jeremy

I realise this, but there are just as many like me as the ones you describe.
I know parents from all walks of life who don't really give a flying fig about education and those that do.
I know you weren't judging but feel I must add, I gave up work before tax credits/ FC was available.
It was wonderful to see the parents I described above, it really was like a light going on for them. They gained confidence and not only saw the benefit of education but were able to pass this onto their children. This was quite some time ago, about 25 years. It came from the head and she was having no messing, she shamed them into it Grin told them they were failing their dc. Not sure if it would be allowed now.

defunctedusername · 06/04/2016 23:12

I am sure MN is the opposite of representative of the population.

I know parents whose children had great potential and they were lucky enough to live in an area with an outstanding school that gets great results. But the mothers (not all single) deliberately chose failing schools precisely because they didn't want to be bothered with parents nights, homework, teachers hassling them, bothering about results etc.

I feel so sad now that their children's life's ambitions are taking a good selfie with a trout pout, boosting about how they know nu'ting about maths and seeing who can get away with the most sexualised school uniform, all live on the world wide web.

And who pays for it?

pieceofpurplesky · 06/04/2016 23:53

Inflated grades at KS2 impacting on levels progress has an impact where I teach. I can look at a set of ahead 7 kids after their first assignment and by comparing them to their KS2 results can tell which school they came from by the gap between grades ... Predominantly white kids.

roundaboutthetown · 07/04/2016 08:38

Don't you mean teaching to the test, pieceofpurplesky? I tend to think of grade inflation as teachers being over generous in their opinions, and teaching to the test as cramming children for exam-type questions for external tests taken at a specific time, rather than spending years bringing them to a point where a certain quality of work comes naturally to them. Anyway, secondary schools will now have the joy of teaching children who are "not secondary school ready" how to get through the primary school tests themselves... as they are scrapping levels in favour of secondary ready or not secondary ready, whilst strangely still sending the children who are not ready on to secondary school.

BombadierFritz · 07/04/2016 08:54

jeremycorbyn that has nothing to do with which school the kids go to. Some of the worst for sexualised behaviour/trout pouts/drugs are the high achieving or private schools. A kid with potential can achieve that potential in most schools. We avoided the local high achieving schools partly because i dont want my kids in that kind of environment. They will get the same grades at the school we chose, even though it is not 'high achieving'

corythatwas · 07/04/2016 10:00

Bombadier, it's not just about bad behaviour, though, it's about aspirations.

I think, sadly, that it is the case that if you come from a high-aspiring background you are far more likely to live down a bit of trout pouts, drugs and sexualised behaviour at 15 and go on to a comfortable life-style. A few will fall by the wayside but the majority will survive and most likely slide into the parental slot. Developing aspirations that are not shared by anyone around you takes real strength of character (and kudos to those MNers who have achieved it).

TheWoodenSpoonOfMischief · 07/04/2016 10:07

I found the growth mindset concept quite interesting. I'm from an immigrant family and my parents, as well as the other parents from the same community always drummed in to their children that you can achieve whatever you want as long as you work hard.
Although the community was from the same Asian country, there were various 'class' backgrounds so even the ones from an equivalent working class background had children that did well.
I have the same attitude with my children. They're still at primary school but I expect them to do some extra work regularly, even in the holidays. Not a ridiculous amount but probably about 30- 45mins a day (not every day as we spend a lot of time out and about) excluding reading.
I explain to them that doing well in school gives you choices and opportunities in life.

guerre · 07/04/2016 10:07

Jeremy- I think you're wrong about tax credits causing this. (Though I admit it may have amplified an already existing issue). I went to school before tax credits. There was family allowance, and there were FSM also, but that was it. I went to a (really quite poor) state school that was ex-secondary modern, but grammars had been axed in our LEA. It was approx 50% white British, and 50% British Asian (the majority of whom were second or third generation immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh).
In school 95% of the Asian origin children worked hard. Many of them were v low achievers, possibly due to language issues, (all but two of my friends spoke a community language at home, not English) or undiagnosed additional needs, but they worked hard, did their homework, tried in all assignments etc. They were destined for factory jobs, a few for construction, and the girls for marriage/children. They knew that in Y7, and they used school to gain as much knowledge and understanding of the world before going on to what had been determined for them by their parents. They had respect for the staff, in the main.
Of the white children (99% of whom were traditional working class), probably 40% of them worked hard, tried their best, some did well in their new fangled GCSEs, most did not. After school some went to college (mainly day releases, doing hair and beauty or car mechanics), some went into retail, or into family businesses such as carpentry and painting & decorating. Of the other 60%, most were aiming for a life on unemployment benefit, several girls were already up-duffed on leaving, so they could get a flat 'like my sister has' when the baby arrived. Many were from workless families, they were the third generation that were going to be workless, and they weren't worried about that, nor ashamed, it was simply a fact of life. Some were from single-parent families, but in truth most of the children from single-parent families worked their socks off because they saw how hard their mums had it.
This was long before tax credits, and when Gordon Brown had only just entered parliament, let alone the shadow cabinet.

I think the clearances of the slums after the second world war (a good thing, surely!) and the building of new council homes destroyed the old WC communities. That coupled with the decline and loss of their industries, and the introduction of the welfare state have meant that as a whole they have given up on life, given up toiling (I mean, where did it get them? Look what happened to their industries, manufacturing was no longer respected as a good honest living, trade and artisanship no longer valued because modern things were desirable, all made in a factory in China.)
The white children in this study aren't WC, because there isn't a WC really any more. They're seen as underclass, they're certainly the class 'at the bottom', and they're not respected, nor valued, or given any meaningful purpose or role in society. So why would they bother? And why would their parents value education, or push them to do well at it? It doesn't get you anywhere.
In 21st century Britain, you need a worthless degree to do a job 14/15 yo school leavers would have done forty years ago, or jobs that hadn't been invented then, purely in existence to service a society that produces nothing, yet needs to occupy all.

Good lord, that was depressing.

HazyMazy · 07/04/2016 10:17

I think we can miss the point that not having aspirations or an interesting well paid job doesn't destine you to an unhappy life.
If you have aspiration which you failed to attain you might be unhappy.
But if you are happy with a life of boring prob temporary work, in and out of work, or on benefits, have family friends neighbours. Can afford a car but don't need much more it isn't necessarily a sad life. Possibly much happier than the couple who don't see each other due to their 60 hour a week work life.

pieceofpurplesky · 07/04/2016 10:18

Round yes it is teaching to the test - it is a combination (not blaming primary here as they are under immense pressure)
I have no idea how we are going to accommodate redoing the tests! Poor children.
I do find that PP white children have less support at home. I teach children from all backgrounds, faiths and ethnicities and it is one particular group that have the worst work ethic. There is an attitude that comes
from parents that they have been let down by the world. Parents live off benefits, blame society and immigrants. Children follow that - I hear comments like 'my dad can't get a job because of all the Polish' etc. This seems to manifest in to 'there's no point working in my exams because I won't get a job'

Gruach · 07/04/2016 10:28

Good lord, that was depressing.

Fabulous though!

Muskey · 07/04/2016 11:41

Well done Guerre for summarising British underclass mindset so well. Depressing yes but hasn't that always been the case. The statistics say nothing new. There are parents who care about the dc education and their are parents ( regardless of class or ethnic origin) who have absolved themselves from their responsibility , choosing instead to leave it up to the teachers and then blame them when things go wrong.