Do you think private schools give your children a advantage in life ?

[mistybear]

I am thinking of going back to work full time so I can send my dd to a private secondary school. My husband and I keep going around in circles of whether or not there is any advantage to a private education. We are not rich hence having to work full time to afford it and this is one of the questions, will having parents that are not that well off be a massive problem being at private school, we are not in London and the area we live in is not massively affluent. One of the reasons I keep thinking about it is that the people I have as friends and some of my family that have been privately educated are doing well and more importantly doing a job they wanted to do. My dd is hardworking and has already achieved her leaving school targets even though she is in year five, the state secondary schools around us are not the best but a couple are not too bad educational wise but all of them do not have clubs and sports that the private school has. She loves her violin, science and space also her ponies and she loves her warhammer !! she is also a only child x

Assuming all things being equal, and two comparable children who are both pleasant enough and have engaged with their schools fully and effectively, I think there will be things state educated child can get out the process that a privately educated one won't, and vice versa.

I think that a child, even one who's always been in top sets at a state comprehensive, will be aware of more different kinds of people and family than the other - although I get that not everyone would consider that a plus, I think there are times in life when it could well be.

I think that a child at a private school will quite probably 'get' some things the other won't, too - they might be less likely to be over-awed in some situations than the other, for one.

Both experiences are different, and both will give the person who had them different and not always over-lapping knowledge and understanding of the world - or bits of it.

I dislike the 'walled garden of privilege' idea though - the attraction of that walled garden you might get a peep at is the wall! And that it's not keeping you out any more: you're on the inside, pissing out, as it were! But the wall's still there keeping most of the rest out, and that's what the point of it is. That's why it's so nice in the special walled garden.

Sorry, nothing valuable to offer this thread but just at £150k is an average wage.

I went to my local comprehensive which was in no way academic, left with a clutch of As, went to Oxford then into a city law firm and was a partner in a smaller one before I was 30. So academically/career wise I'm not sure anything could have been added.

But, it was a real struggle. Everthing was done in spite of my school rather than because of it.

DH went to a school mentioned earlier where over 50% of his year went to Oxbridge. Loved his school, breezed through university and then followed a similar career path to me.

What I notice most is how much broader his knowledge is than mine because his school encouraged learning for its own sake so they covered all sorts of things that aren't on the national curriculum. Didn't necessarily result in better results or a better career but certainly a better education. And as others have said he has an easy self confidence that I am sure was instilled at school.

So yes I do think private education gives you an advantage in life although it is certainly possible to do just as well without it.

As we are fortunate enough to have the choice, we have gone with private schools for our DC.

"'Quis paget, entrat'"
The Cat I believe that is the motto of that great independent school, St Cakes, details of which are regularly posted in Private Eye. Quite a remarkable school ...

Hettie, I agree with your post of 11:56

The much hyped selective private secondary here is a bit like that , it is ALL about becoming a lawyer, a banker or a doctor.

All the drama/music/renaissance art is part of a hoop-jumping program to show the kids are "well rounded" before they are pushed to their parents' preferred career choice.

Lilymaid

I wondered if anyone would get that

The ideal indie school for any child, I would think...

Happy I've been in the land of glitter and spangles all afternoon (where state and privately educated young people can seemingly co-exist, in a glittery, spangly sort of way) but I see that another poster has offered up Pates. I'd suggest also CRGS. And I see that several state Grammars got a higher uncapped average points at GCSE this year than Westminster (which was well down the list). And a higher capped average too. The point though, is that there is only one westminster, one Win Coll and one St Paul's (well, there are two St Pauls but you know hat I mean) - I'll happily admit that the 4 best paying schools in the country get great academic results but they are not so far ahead of the very best grammar schools that the grammar schools can be dismissed as not even being able to compete (you didn't say the 4 best paying schools get the best results you said no grammar can compete which is a different thing).

Nimpy my (state educated) DD has spent the weekend playing (among other things) renaissance instruments with a world renowned musician. I don't think it has made her any more 'rounded' though.

TheCat - I would be very tempted by St Custards if only it was local.

Taz our local Scottish High School does not offer a broad a choice either. Plus pupils are limited to 6 subjects at the National 5 level (GCSE equivalent) The attitude has been expressed by the head that that was all the kids need. But I feel it is very limiting for those who are able students.

Nimpy... it would appear you and I are very much in the minority.
On a personal level I experienced both state and private. The facilities at my private school were amazing and class sizes where smaller too. I did public speaking, sports drama etc etc. But loads of the kids in that school didn’t, they didn’t engage and many got very average results. Drugs, disillusionment and unhappiness were just as rife as at my local bog standard comp…..
I don’t think this is just a private school things btw, but the focus on what kids achieve (you see it in spades on mumsnet- anxieties about book levels, SAT’s the 11 plus, A-levels, Russell groups universities etc etc) over who they are (and what makes them happy) is doing no favours for our kids mental health. We should be valuing them for who they are not what they do. The amount of stressed anxious kids with eating disorders, self-harm issues and poor self-esteem is overwhelming CAHMS services at the moment. And that’s not just anecdotally, there is hard evidence that the incidence of mental health issue in teens is on the increase in the UK.
Now I’m not saying that’s due to private schools (obviously), but it does concern me that we are transmitting all this worry and angst about succeeding and archiving to our kids. And too often we have a very narrow definition of what success looks like. I’m guessing it may have something to do with the over increasing gap between those doing ‘well’ and everyone else. The middle class angst about our kids not being able to have a ‘naice’ lifestyle if they don’t become lawyers or doctors or work in finance. There is a great BBC radio 4 documentary about this at the moment www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05108h6 . I know from my experience locally that I am in a minority of one on this issue. Everyone else is pushing their kids into tonnes of extra-curricular CV building activities, hiring tutors and fretting and pushing (and probably damaging their kids self-esteem to boot).

hettie I suspect I may be a bit like you too - although my kids do loads of EC activities - but that's because it's the EC activities they care about. One of our most frequent battles involves DH and I trying to cut down on the stuff they do and them trying to add to it. But it's certainly the case that I have done everything in my power to dissuade them from pursuing the sort of highly lucrative but essentially wage-slave career that I find myself in. And it looks like all of them have read, marked and inwardly digested, perhaps too much so. They all seem set to follow extremely non lucrative vocational paths, rather than following the money.

hettie I suspect much of it is driven by a growing understanding of how divided the UK has become.

Fewer and fewer jobs providing enough money for a reasonable existence in a country facing ever increasing house prices and cost of living expenses.

Of the women I know who went to a private school
9 are 'administrators' of various grades
8 health care practitioners (not doctors)
8 sahm
6 doctors
6 other various skilled non professional jobs
4 marketing
3 the arts
3 teachers
3 lawyers
2 accountants
2 social workers
2 work in sport

Were they all advantaged?
Were the fees their parents paid worth it?

Imo most of them would have turned out the same had they gone to a good state school.

But I don't doubt you can be happy in a high earning, high flying career . But only if you chose to do it.... If our kids even get a faint whiff or even vaguely think we will value/love/be more proud of them if they do one thing over another it can be a problem. It doesn’t even have to be verbalised. Kids will go to extreme lengths to be loved by their parents (I should know I’ve worked with kids whose parents have been far from loving and they still crave their contact ). If your kids get a sense that they will be valued more by doing XYZ then their either going to be upset (if they don’t achieve it) because they’ve let you down or doing something to (unconsciously) please you….

The word, Oh I totally agree…. Doesn’t make it a good thing though does it? I see the price our children our paying and frankly it scares me shitless. I feel like I will have a battle to steer my dc through this all-pervading ‘status anxiety’… Not to sign up to it unthinkingly.
Have a listen to clinging on: the state of the middle classes it summarises the fears perfectly

I wanted all my kids to be particle physicists or similar (ideally something to do with SPACE). Not one of them has shown any inclination in that directions (DS likes the maths bits of physics but that's it). :( Perhaps if I paid for their education they would feel more obliged to be enthusiastic about SPACE (other than its potential for inspiring fabulous fiction).

Jackie - there are 56 women in that list. How do you know where they all went to school? Genuine question, as the amount of women whose educational details I know is far fewer. Unless you were at school with them all and you have kept up with them all since.

Sorry, nothing valuable to offer this thread but just shock at £150k is an average wage

I think that was my comment.

I don't mean 'average' in the true sense of average, comparable to the rest of the country. But nor is it in the leagues of the super wealthy.

Two adults on £75k each brings in around £8k a month.

If you have 2 or 3 dc in private school, you could pay out £4-£5k a month in fees. Leaving £3k for everything else, including all the extra that has to be paid with private schooling (sky high uniform costs etc).

If one parent lost their job (which could happen to any of us) you'd be royally fucked.

When it comes to something as important as continuity of your dc's education, that's not a risk I'd take, unless I had a good 5 years worth of fees saved just in case.

Hence my comment about those on an 'average' £150k income putting the pressure of years of school fees on themselves as being downright nuts a bit complacent with it.

Thanks for the links Hettie, will listen.

My social (tiny) world is split in two. Partly due to the fact that my kids went to private prep, then into state secondary (comp). We are in Hampshire where there is quite a bit of private-state-and back hopping.

On the one side, my private school friends are beset by angst, there is no other word, it is contestant anxiety and extra tutoring when the kids come home at 6 (6!) and every single break/lunch time is filled with extra curricular stuff (music, chess, history club). There is hardly any time to just be. And the stress and anxiety to get the kids to be educated to the max is , I admit it, catching. Spending an evening with these friends I feel a bit unsure about my choices regarding the kids' education! They "only" do 2 sports, and are "only" on level 2/3 on their instrument .

On the other side my more down to earth friends, who may have children with SEN (quite a few actually) who want their kids to be happy and do ok at school, and who believe it is good to push kids, and encourage them, but it is bad to get them stressed. They care greatly about their children's mental health, social skills and resilience. These friends hate the focus on SATs/11+ and learning to the test. They want to foster a love of learning without pushing it all dow their throat. I feel more at home with these friends.

But like I say, there is a bit of tiger mum in me, and I sometimes wonder if I am too laid-back.

That is why I, like many of you I guess, follow these discussions with great interest

There are a few fabulous TED talks by Livingstone on education. I also believe in the Stephen Biddulph idea that you have to find a kid's spark, find what they love and encourage that.

BakewellSlice Yes, it's the same at our local school - only 6 subjects at Nat 5. The range of Highers is limited as well. The Council slashed the range of Highers and Advanced Highers back in 2010 citing the "economic demographics" as the reason. Only around 7% end up with enough Highers for uni- no surprise given the environment (and I don't mean that as a reflection of the intake. Quite the opposite!) at that school!

Our top independent school costs nowhere near £2k - £2.5k per month per child.

In any case, there are plenty of people who would be financially stretched if one parent lost their job, whether that be because of mortgage, school fees, credit card loans etc. People make their choices.

I'm not convinced by the conclusion of that radio programme. It says it is concerned by "the decline of the middle classes" but the problem really seems to be the imbalance between London and the rest of the country. The middle classes out in the provinces don't seem to be doing that badly, not by my experience anyway.

I would be very tempted by St Custards if only it was local. GentlyBenevolent

I think St Custards is a feeder for St Cakes - Fotheringham-thomas got the top scholarship last year

Perhaps if I paid for their education they would feel more obliged to be enthusiastic about SPACE (other than its potential for inspiring fabulous fiction)

You never know, your DS might still win a Hugo.

But nor is it in the leagues of the super wealthy. Chessie00

Depends whether you are looking up or looking down. For most families 150 grand pa is an unreachable Olympian height, and DW and me both work.

Chessie - £150K income for a couple would put that household in the top 1% of households in the UK, depending on how many children they had. It's not even slightly average, but many miles above. Its fascinating how little awareness people have of other peoples earnings.

If anyone would like to know where they fall in the UK income/wealth scale, this quick tool created by channel 4 can tell you.www.channel4.com/programmes/how-rich-are-you

Do private education advantage people? Yes, a lot. Here is the evidence from the governments own survey, conducted by the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/347915/Elitist_Britain_-_Final.pdf

Does* private education, of course!

And here's a proper link:

www.channel4.com/programmes/how-rich-are-you