What has gone wrong with Maths at Westminster?

[committedparent]

Only 1 pupil applied from Westminster to do Maths at Cambridge. 13 pupils applied to Oxford for maths or computer science. There were 0 (zero) offers from Oxford maths. Staggering.
Does anyone know what went wrong this year?
I am told that overall 25% of pupils took a gap year to re-apply last year. I don't know how this group have done with their applications.

Uilen, I would agree that there seems to be a move away from maths/physics to applied subjects like economics, computing, engineering and materials science. I had put it down first to overseas students being more hard-headed about future employability, and then British students following their lead.

Getting back to Westminster, the candidates who seemed to be getting Cambridge offers for engineering and economics were strong mathematicians. Perhaps strong enough to have been credible applicants for maths degrees.

And Bonsoir, as I understand it, Britain is the only EU country that offers the very maths based economics degrees much loved by financial recruiters. Elsewhere degrees can be a lot closer to business studies.

Needmoresleep that seems to chime with what I'm hearing from DS about the views of his friends and his parents.

The British love a hierarchy. A good old list .

They seem to be convinced that there is some objective concrete definition of where is 'top'. That way everyone knows where they are.

But those from outside the UK, or who have moved a lot, or who work with mostly non-Brits are a bit more fluid in their approach. There are many factors to be taken into account rather than just where is 'top'. And indeed many are resistant to the idea that there even is a 'top'.

TheWordFactory - the hierarchy among the French Grandes Ecoles is just extraordinary. Way, way worse than anything you could see in the UK!

I agree with all these last few posts. French (and I presume other Europeans) don't see Oxbridge with the same awe as many British applicants do. I know French applicants who are extremely strong (19+ at maths /science Bac) but who don't want the narrow perspective of la prepa and would prefer a British style of university education. However these same applicants (who don't come from the same moneyed circles that Bonsoir seems to know) are very much put off but the prospect of debt from the cost of British Universities. There is an unmet need in the French system of something more akin to the British system which keeps options and extracurricular opportunities open for longer.

Needmoresleep - the French Bac ES (Economic and Social Sciences) is, IMVHO, "Bac Read The Newspapers". Very few numbers anywhere! And it is useless preparation for UK Economics undergraduate courses - only S will do (and indeed does very nicely).

Bonsoir how are the GEs coping with so many of their best students taking flight to the UK?

. How does it compute?

It is not true that British numbers are down for maths and physics degrees - the opposite is true, with many RG courses expanding. (Such graduates are extremely employable and of course many maths postgraduates end up in specialised finance jobs.)

I would also say the number of "top" applicants for maths from Britain seems pretty steady, i.e. maths is not losing top students to economics etc more than it was 10 or 20 years ago. However I think it has always been true that boys from the top public schools tend to be more keen on PPE or economics or law than maths or physics and maybe that trend is increasing - it's hard to tell without analysing a few years of data, spread over a number of top schools. Personally I think Oxbridge has missed a trick by not introducing more financial maths into its maths degrees, as other RG universities have done. But on the other hand with very healthy recruitment there's no particular need to do so.

summerends - there are an awful lot of unmet needs in the French education system, at all levels. It's all such a waste.

There needs to be a new Bac where Maths is studied to the same standard as the Bac S, but without the Physics-Chemistry and Life Sciences, which would be replaced by a properly analytical History course (much wanted by History-Geography teachers who are often very frustrated) and better MFL (especially English).

TheWordFactory - my DP, who leads panel admissions interviews (the final round) at ESSEC, his alma mater, is always trying to get info on that one. His feeling is that HEC/ESSEC/ESCP still pretty much have their heads in the sand about the issue. I suppose unless and until graduate recruitment becomes a an issue they won't bother too much. A lot of recruiters are in their 40s and 50s and still deeply imbued with the idea that they can only recruit from a handful of French GE. Though HR directors, who are younger and have come up through other channels, are often more aware that there is better trained talent elsewhere these days.

Little do they all know that you are the enemy within . Seeding your ideas of study in the UK...

Uilen, I dont disagree, indeed other than a certain amount of anecdote I am just speculating. The complication is that top maths sets in a school like Westminster are very international so any pattens will be based on different influences.

We believe in healthy competition in this family!

I have an awful lot of favors to pull in from friends whose DC I have led through the UCAS process...

Bonsoir I also assume that the effective financial sector brain drain from Paris to London will have an impact. We know so many people who had assumed they were only in London for a three year posting and who have found themselves still here 20 years later with children who are neither British nor French but feel at home in London. Something that presumably will only get worse in the short term till the Euro problems are resolved. Increasingly people will know people in London and their choices for their children will have an influence. Certainly amongst people we know applying to the French University system, even after Lycee CDG, is normally only as a fall back.

The French Lycee and the Embassy, which is very involved with the thorny issues surrounding the education of French DC in the UK, are very aware of the lack of attractivity of French HE.

As someone educated in three countries with three sorts of leaving diploma I am naturally pro all this mixing up and rather enjoy being a veteran of the Erasmus generation

Bonsoir I agree, that mix of subjects for the humanities /MFL/maths with same high standards and respect as the BacS is very much an unmet need.

Needmoresleep the French /anglo generation has been around for even longer but they do actually expand their horizons outside London once at university stage if they stay in the UK. What happens after depends on relationships but it is still much harder to re enter the French system for most professions.

Yes, the Lycee seems to lose a number of its brighter students each year to sixth forms like Westminster, SPGS and SPS as parents decide their children might do better applying for competitive courses with standard English qualifications, particularly Oxbridge and medicine. London seems more willing to get their heads round different EU qualifications.

The Lycée is migrating from the standard French Bac to the Option Internationale, British version, for a good proportion of its cohort. IIRC the first year Lycee pupils will graduate with the OIB will be 2021. That may help the Lycee retain pupils as the OIB gives better access to top British universities, especially when there is a large essay component, than the standard French Bac.

Bonsoir completely off topic but what is the Lycee Janson de Sailly? Have you heard of it?

And on topic (ish!), it's interesting that you say that 'only' half of the total number of applicants from Westminster actually nab a place at Oxford or Cambridge Needmoresleep, given the hugely selective nature of the school - I'd have thought the figure would be very much higher. Obviously 40% of a cohort getting a place is a staggering statistic, but 50% of the total number, in context, far less so. It would really interesting to know on a school by school basis what percentage of the total number of applicants get a place.

That data is available, Molio, for schools which put at least 5 candidates in but I can't find links right now.

For the above discussion:

www.ox.ac.uk/.../admissionsstatistics/Admissions_Statistics_2013.pdf

On page 26 you can see how few students came into Oxford with French Bac (inc international option) or German Arbitur - less than 10 with Bac out of 3000 entering students! Of course French students are also included in the IB figure. However he data about applications by nationality and domicile is interesting. Proportionally less French apply than Germans, for example (which is in line with my experiences). In total only 9 students with French nationality were accepted in 2013 - the French success rate was only 6%.

Lycee Janson-de-Sailly is a massive state school in the 16th arrondissement which has several Prepas (16-18) as well as Lycee (15-18). I imagine it must have a College (11-15) as well but smaller. I think there are 10 classes of 35 pupils per Lycee cohort - it's the biggest school site by number of pupils in Paris.

Anything else?

Love this thread.

"given the hugely selective nature of the school - I'd have thought the figure would be very much higher. "

I wouldn't. Sure, it's a very selective school, but it's very far from being the only very selective school, and they can't all get all their kids in - there simply aren't enough places.

I would be worried by a school which bragged about its acceptance rate oer application, as it would rather suggest that the borderline cases were dissuaded from applying.

uilen - I would just love to look at your link but I am not allowed access!

Uilen perhaps the Germans place more relative importance on Oxbridge or there are more with the level of English required. Most of the French who would contemplate British university would be from an international French school with a bilingual course, not a normal French school with relatively poor English language skills.

I am not surprised by the low success rate, the French education does not develop the flexible thinking required.

This link should be OK:

www.ox.ac.uk/gazette/statisticalinformation/#d.en.6207

(Note: I am not based in Oxford so this is openly available data. The Cambridge equivalent is readily available also.)