What has gone wrong with Maths at Westminster?

[committedparent]

Only 1 pupil applied from Westminster to do Maths at Cambridge. 13 pupils applied to Oxford for maths or computer science. There were 0 (zero) offers from Oxford maths. Staggering.
Does anyone know what went wrong this year?
I am told that overall 25% of pupils took a gap year to re-apply last year. I don't know how this group have done with their applications.

needsmore I agree that I think W's popularity is based on more than its leavers' destinations (though of course this is one important factor for parents).

Its location, the fact that it seems to encompass both day and boarding pupils harmoniously and the quality of the day-to-day experience will sell it.

I think too, that the school and parents (though the later possibly more slowly) are becoming less Oxbridge-centric. In 2014 a good portion of leavers went to the states. I don't know about this year's leavers, but DS year (2017 leavers) has a lot of boys already considering the US.

And the London universities are also building up a head of steam. LSE, UCL, Imperial, Kings are no longer considered second best (though I can see that teens who have lived in London might want a change of scene for heir UG years).

Needmoresleep I completely agree about the focus being on the education a school provides, but why not carry that focus on to university level? I would encourage any of my DC who seemed remotely capable of getting an Oxford or Cambridge place to apply, because the education those two places provide is pretty unique - I don't think the very small tutorial system is properly replicated anywhere else. Even in my day we had tutorials at Durham with five or so students, and the education I got was nothing like that that my elder DC have got. And tutorials in universities other than Oxford and Cambridge have got ever bigger, for reasons of cost. As far as I'm concerned it's about the education those two universities provide, far more than as a fast track route to a merchant bank or whatever.

Word, I agree. Unless there has been a big change of emphasis, my impression was more 5-6, including at least one to the States and one who was realistically more RG.

There are swings and roundabouts with staying in London. Geographically you have not moved, but the learning environments are very different and obviously very much more international. There have always been some who find that Oxbridge colleges dont provide enough contrast from school and are a bit "small town".

Westminster seems to provide a great foundation, for University. Boys who might otherwise be quite retiring are used to presenting papers, organising things, seeking out additional opportunitites, taking part. So where ever you end up you are well placed to make the most of it.

Uilen, I am surprised that the pool of strong maths candidates has not grown over recent years. As standards of English improve, studying in the UK is becoming an increasingly feasible option for EU students. There has been a growth in sixth form colleges specialising in maths, whether catering for overseas students (like ones in Cardiff and Shropshire as well as London and Oxford/Cambridge) or the Kings Maths school in Central London. There has been a huge growth in British education as a product such as the Harrow International schools catering for the growing numbers of affluent people in places like Thailand and China or students from places like Russia taking up sixth form places in traditonal British boarding schools. Plus the numbers of expats actually living in London and educating their children here is increasing. Some of these have to be very good.

DS has found that the strength of the maths knowledge has been really useful. He is supposed to be taking an economics degree yet three out of his four first year courses are maths. The difference though between that and a maths degree is that maths is essentially a tool so he needs to be capable rather than gifted.

I just looked at www.westminster.org.uk/academic-life/results.html - out of 189 2013 leavers, only 3 did Maths degrees anyway! So not sending any to Oxbridge to do Maths in 2015 doesn't seem particularly anomalous.

They did have 52 go to Oxford, which seems like a huge amount (24 to Cambridge), but no other years' stats, so dunno whether that's normal or a good year.

(plus 1 for Maths and Philosophy.)

Molio, houses for courses presumably. I am not aware of the tutorial system being a big factor in decision making for would be engineers and mathematicians.

The fact is most apply, and not all get in. Even in a good year "only" 50% will get offers. And most students find there are lots of positives in courses elsewhere. The problem can be when parents are focussed on Oxbridge being the "best". It is a bit of a lottery for all bar exceptional candidates. And like Westminster, it does not suit everyone.

From observation going away to University appears to be something that culturally British and Americans do. We know several London-resident European and Asian children, at London private day schools, who have chosen London over Oxbridge. Even in my day this was the case with some Jewish students and I assume Muslim students again often prefer not to leave home.

needmoresleep exactly.

I love the bones of Oxbridge. I went there myself. I teach there (part time). I spend inordinate amount of hours working on the widening access scheme. I rate it very highly.

But the reality is that it isn't the only place in the world worth going, and the university experience is about far more than tutorials, which is something that I think gets very lost amongst my colleagues, but is very alive for me because I'm also a Mum of teens .

As more and more OWs come back to school with tales of wonderful years spent at LSE or MIT, the less Oxbridge-centric Westminster will become, I think. Which is just as well as obviously not everyone can go!

Going away to HE is almost impossible for most French DC: university, like school, has catchment areas and unless you are going for really elite courses you will in all probability stay in catchment (at home) for university.

There certainly isn't any kind of engrained idea that DC leave home post-bac.

Studying at undergraduate level in the UK is still unattractive for most EU students because of the costs involved. E.g. most good French students will still head for the grandes ecoles rather than Oxbridge or London. Moreover Oxbridge often sets ridiculously high offers when they don't understand or trust a country's qualification system, which puts off many applicants.

And most ultra-rich students who are not sensitive to fees look both at Oxbridge and at Ivy League in the US; the Oxbridge acceptance rate is often not that high as they prefer broader education in the US. It would also be hard to argue that Oxbridge is better than MIT, Princeton, Stanford, Caltech.

Oxbridge maths has been international for years - I can recall a significant fraction of my college's mathematicians being from Russia twenty years ago - and the numbers of top students have not really changed that much.

Like Molio I don't really understand why people wouldn't consider Oxbridge as offering more than London: one-to-one or one-to-two tutorials for no extra fees is great value for money. Imo Oxbridge maths is also at a totally different level to London colleges.

uilen I agree that Oxbridge offers more bang for your buck (and have said that many times here and on my school visits).

Coupled with the very economical accommodation and plentiful financial assistance, it's a Good Deal.

Always worth a punt (which I think is usually Westminster's view).

But the reality is that most applicants don't get in, and there's no point and no need IMVHO to treat that as problematic. No one need cry into their beer because they're heading off to somewhere else where they will receive a great education, have a fabulous time, and set themselves up for the future.

Uilen, I dont know much about maths, but DS did a bit of due dilligence before deciding where to apply for economics, by speaking to people working in the sort of fields he might want to go into. Anecdotal only but he was steered towards UCL, LSE, Warwick and Cambridge. Warwick was considered a little weaker technically and Cambridge a little old fashioned. All were fine as a platform for a Masters.

The Oxbridge tutorial system may offer better value. However for a number of subjects different factors also come into the mix and often other places have distinct advantages.

I guess OPs concern about acceptances at a single University, and that it is a school's responsibility to deliver, worries me. It sort of leads to an assumption that anything else is second rate and that by not getting an Oxbridge offer the child/school have failed. Just as DS is surrounded by very capable students who did not have the educational advantages he has had, at the next stage Oxbridge graduates will surrounded by equally able/qualified non-Oxbridge grads who may well have enjoyed their University years just as much.

Also, whilst Oxbridge is good value in financial terms, let's be honest, that's not the biggest concern for many W parents.

Put bluntly, they can afford to send their DC to the London universities or the States or ...

uilen - "Studying at undergraduate level in the UK is still unattractive for most EU students because of the costs involved. E.g. most good French students will still head for the grandes ecoles rather than Oxbridge or London."

This isn't quite correct. French students who want to do two years of Prépa and try for HEC are looking at costs that are (much higher) for a six year course that only gets them the same entry-level graduate jobs at the end (McKinsey/Goldman Sachs/L'Oréal etc) as a three-year UG course in the UK.

The more expensive Prépas now charge over EUR 20 000 fees for the two year course (before accommodation etc) and you are looking at probably EUR 40 000 fees for HEC (for the whole course) if you are thinking of entry in 2017. Again, before accommodation/car/living costs etc.

Need I was referring solely to the quality of education provide by Oxford and Cambridge, not to any enjoyment factor.

Word, most parents can't afford the States, and only a very small number of US institutions rival Oxford and Cambridge. There are plenty which don't, even if you can pay for them. Looking at the leavers' list, not that many get to the really top names, though no doubt none go at all from most grammars and comps.

So was I!

Ok, the grandes ecoles are more expensive than I recall them being, but throughout most of the EU tuition fees are virtually nothing. 18 year olds brought up in other countries aren't indoctrinated with the UK mantra that Oxbridge is better and most of them wouldn't even think of applying to the UK. (And most of the French I know believe that grandes ecoles are superior to Oxbridge so that's another reason for not applying... although I do know of some French academics whose kids failed to get into grandes ecoles and then came to UCL etc instead.)

Needmoresleep, I was commenting specifically about maths. For other subjects Oxbridge might well not be superior but in maths the amount of material and the depth at which it is covered is different at Oxbridge compared to elsewhere.

The US isn't good value for money for UG education for EU (including UK) students and having a US degree can make a job search in Europe difficult. Better IMO to stay in the UK for UG.

uilen - the days when UK universities were a back-up plan for French students who were not going to make a great Prépa/Grande Ecole are over (though this was true in the past). I know for fact that between 1/3 and 1/2 of some Terminales at Louis-le-Grand apply to the UK. Highly anecdotally (but I have other examples), my DSS2, who is predicted a mean mark of 18.5 in his Bac S (of which 19 in Maths and 20 in English), has Prépa at Louis-le-Grand as his back up plan should he fail to get a place on his desired UK university courses. And he hasn't even applied to Oxbridge (he desperately wants London).

They have found out that Maths means nothing in public life, the media or economics.. if you are in a 'leadership' wanky politics role?

I think the rise in interest in the US universities amongst young people at W ( and other schools like it) is caused by a number of factors.

Obviously a sizeable minority of pupils are not from the UK. Moving on for university is natural for them.

Similarly many UK pupils have had a fairly global childhood so university outside the UK seems an extension of that.

And as these things always go, trends build up a head of steam. The more that go and have a great time, the more want to go. A sort of, why not approach.

I know that quite a few French kids end up in London universities. I guess I don't see so many of them as Maths tends to be less popular and Oxbridge is less popular (since London is more attractive as a place to live?) I am told by French colleagues that more and more top students in France are heading away from Maths and Physics, towards Economics etc

There are some schools in Paris (EJM in particular) where university in the US is popular and an increasing trend for much the same reasons you give, TheWordFactory.

However, when DC who haven't had the same global childhood and don't have real reasons for moving to the US beyond education attempt it, I have heard of several who regret it further down the line for the reasons I outlined.

uilen - Economics at a good university in the UK is a good deal for French students who have done Bac S spé Maths (rather than spé Physique-Chimie, for engineering school) and want to continue with a highly quantitative degree. Economics in the UK is much more quantitative than Prépa for Ecoles de Commerce and makes them bilingual (so more maths and more English than Prépa) and they get to drop Philosophy/History-Geography/Spanish, which many of the Bac S spé Maths types hate!

This is going very off-topic, but I tend to agree with Bonsoir. Again anecdotally, but last year The Student Room thread for LSE entrants seemed to attract a number of French students who kept having to be reminded to stick to English. Many seemed to be applying to both English and French systems, but often with the LSE as first pick. Probably small numbers again but the focus and status of the English system holds appeal for Italians, those from central Europe and probably others. London is now astonishingly international which for many (including Bonsoir's DSS2?) is an attraction in itself.

What was also interesting was the attitude of other Westminster parents. It was clear that for some, "not Oxbridge" was a step down. Non British parents in contrast seemed to see a place for engineering at Imperial, computer science at UCL or economics at LSE or similar as a real achievement. Ditto with American colleges. Some applicants were very focussed on Ivy League, others, especially those opting for liberal arts, took a wider approach to what they really wanted from their college experience.

"Many seemed to be applying to both English and French systems, but often with the LSE as first pick."

This is exactly it. All French Terminale students apply to the French system - their schools wouldn't allow them not to! - but the ones who apply to the UK tend to prefer the UK and think of their French APB application as a back up.

Anecdotally (again), my DSS1 tells me that all his friends who have gone abroad to university are super happy and those who are in their second year of Prépa are miserable (and of course mostly still at home, since they are Paris-based. Or else locked up in some ghastly boarding house).