What has gone wrong with Maths at Westminster?

[committedparent]

Only 1 pupil applied from Westminster to do Maths at Cambridge. 13 pupils applied to Oxford for maths or computer science. There were 0 (zero) offers from Oxford maths. Staggering.
Does anyone know what went wrong this year?
I am told that overall 25% of pupils took a gap year to re-apply last year. I don't know how this group have done with their applications.

summer completely agree that the school cohort information would be very useful and give much more perspective. However source data is from Cambridge and Oxford and does not include that. Not sure a single source exists, but am open to suggestions.

To be fair to Tiffins they had 60 Oxbridge applicants - higher than 4 of the other "top 10" and just one less than Hampton. 60 applicants ranked them 44th overall in terms of number of applications - remembering this is only schools with at least 15 applicants to both Oxford and Cambridge, so minimum of 30 applicants overall.

Of the top 10 listed number of Oxbridge applicants was (going from 1 to 10th place) 88, 86, 169, 40,38, 61, 45, 37, 109, 60

Taking a combined figure of 30 but with no minimum of 15 for both Ox and Cam does change top 10 a bit

Watford GS Boys 53.3% from 30 applicants (9 Ox, 21 Cam)
St Helen & St Katherine 50% from 30 applicants (12 and 18)
Durham Johnstone Comp 48.4% from 31 applicants (12 and 19)

chocolate its just an excel file cobbled together from the two published datasets at the moment that sits on a laptop. Not sure the MN message box deals very well with tables, I think formatting lost completely. Saving sections as images might be an option - I'll look into that tomorrow. However better and simpler ideas most welcome. Happy to link just not sure where to

not ideal but simple copy and paste.

School Name success %
Magdalen College School, Oxford 55.7%
Haberdashers' Aske's Boys' School 51.2%
Westminster School 50.3%
Simon Langton School for Boys 50.0%
Altrincham Girls Grammar School 50.0%
Hampton School 49.2%
Oxford High School GDST 48.9%
Norwich School 48.6%
King's College School 48.6%
The Tiffin Girls School 48.3%
Latymer Upper School 47.7%
Guildford High School 47.1%
North London Collegiate School 46.5%
The Perse School 45.5%
Royal Grammar School, Newcastle?upon?Tyne 44.4%
Royal Grammar School Guildford 43.8%
St Paul's School, London 42.8%
Hereford Sixth Form College 42.2%
Watford Grammar School for Girls 41.9%
Dr Challoners Grammar School 41.5%
Eton College 40.3%
Camden School for Girls 40.0%
Reading School 39.5%
Queen Elizabeth's School, Barnet 39.1%
Hills Road Sixth Form College 39.1%
Winchester College 39.0%
The Latymer School 38.9%
St Pauls Girls School 38.3%
Headington School, Oxford 38.2%
Dame Alice Owen's School 38.2%
Haberdashers' Aske's School for Girls, Elstree 38.1%
Pate's Grammar School 38.0%
King Edward's School, Edgbaston 37.3%
Henrietta Barnett School 37.3%
Tonbridge School 37.2%
James Allens Girls School 37.2%
The Judd School, Tonbridge 37.0%
Merchant Taylors' School, Northwood 36.7%
Devonport High School for Boys 36.7%
Wilson's School 36.4%
Brighton College 36.1%
Graveney School 35.3%
King Edward VI Camp Hill School for Boys 34.9%
Harrow School 34.8%
The Godolphin and Latymer School 34.8%
City of London School for Girls 34.5%
Loreto College, Manchester 34.0%
Sevenoaks School 33.9%
Peter Symonds College 33.8%
Wycombe Abbey School, High Wycombe 33.8%
Cheltenham Ladies' College 33.7%
Canford School 33.3%
Kings School, Canterbury 33.3%
Esher College 33.3%
Methodist College 33.3%
Manchester Grammar School 32.9%
Abingdon School 32.6%
Uppingham School 32.5%
Lancaster Royal Grammar School 32.1%
Whitgift School, South Croydon 31.8%
Colchester Royal Grammar School 31.0%
Sutton Grammar School 30.8%
Greenhead College, Huddersfield 30.6%
St Olave's and St Saviour's Grammar School 30.0%
George Watson's College 29.0%
Brighton Hove and Sussex Sixth Form College 28.6%
Alleyn's School, Dulwich 28.3%
The Sixth Form College Farnborough 27.8%
Tiffin School 27.8%
Dulwich College 27.4%
City of London School 26.7%
Royal Latin School 26.7%
Charterhouse 26.6%
Exeter College, Hele Road Centre 26.1%
Loughborough Grammar School, Loughborough 25.6%
Christ's Hospital 25.0%
Kendrick School 24.4%
King Edward VI Grammar School, Chelmsford 24.1%
Wellington College, Crowthorne 24.0%
Richard Huish College 23.5%
Bancrofts School 23.5%
Bromsgrove School 23.5%
Brockenhurst College 23.5%
The Grammar School at Leeds 23.4%
Gower College Swansea (Coleg Gwyr Abertawe) 23.3%
King Edward VI College, Stourbridge 23.1%
Aylesbury Grammar School 22.6%
Benenden School 22.6%
Wyggeston & Queen Elizabeth I College 22.4%
Truro & Penwith College 22.2%
Winstanley College 21.2%
Runshaw College 21.0%
Rugby School 20.9%
Concord College 20.6%
Woodhouse College, Finchley 20.3%
Altrincham Grammar School for Boys 20.0%
Collyers VI Form College, Horsham 19.6%
George Abbot School 18.2%
Dr Challoner's High School for Girls 17.9%
Royal Grammar School, Buckinghamshire 17.5%
Epsom College 16.7%
Newstead Wood School 16.7%
King Edward VI Five Ways School 15.9%
Shrewsbury Sixth Form College 14.3%
Cardinal Newman College, Preston 14.0%
Bilborough College 11.9%
Lycee Francais Charles De Gaulle 9.5%

and applications
School Name Tot Appls
Magdalen College School, Oxford 88
Haberdashers' Aske's Boys' School 86
Westminster School 169
Simon Langton School for Boys 40
Altrincham Girls Grammar School 38
Hampton School 61
Oxford High School GDST 45
Norwich School 37
King's College School 109
The Tiffin Girls School 60
Latymer Upper School 65
Guildford High School 34
North London Collegiate School 86
The Perse School 66
Royal Grammar School, Newcastle?upon?Tyne 45
Royal Grammar School Guildford 80
St Paul's School, London 138
Hereford Sixth Form College 45
Watford Grammar School for Girls 43
Dr Challoners Grammar School 65
Eton College 201
Camden School for Girls 40
Reading School 43
Queen Elizabeth's School, Barnet 69
Hills Road Sixth Form College 156
Winchester College 105
The Latymer School 90
St Pauls Girls School 94
Headington School, Oxford 34
Dame Alice Owen's School 76
Haberdashers' Aske's School for Girls, Elstree 63
Pate's Grammar School 79
King Edward's School, Edgbaston 59
Henrietta Barnett School 51
Tonbridge School 86
James Allens Girls School 43
The Judd School, Tonbridge 54
Merchant Taylors' School, Northwood 49
Devonport High School for Boys 30
Wilson's School 66
Brighton College 61
Graveney School 34
King Edward VI Camp Hill School for Boys 43
Harrow School 66
The Godolphin and Latymer School 46
City of London School for Girls 58
Loreto College, Manchester 47
Sevenoaks School 112
Peter Symonds College 145
Wycombe Abbey School, High Wycombe 80
Cheltenham Ladies' College 83
Canford School 45
Kings School, Canterbury 57
Esher College 45
Methodist College 36
Manchester Grammar School 82
Abingdon School 46
Uppingham School 40
Lancaster Royal Grammar School 53
Whitgift School, South Croydon 44
Colchester Royal Grammar School 84
Sutton Grammar School 39
Greenhead College, Huddersfield 111
St Olave's and St Saviour's Grammar School 90
George Watson's College 31
Brighton Hove and Sussex Sixth Form College 56
Alleyn's School, Dulwich 46
The Sixth Form College Farnborough 90
Tiffin School 72
Dulwich College 73
City of London School 75
Royal Latin School 45
Charterhouse 79
Exeter College, Hele Road Centre 46
Loughborough Grammar School, Loughborough 39
Christ's Hospital 36
Kendrick School 41
King Edward VI Grammar School, Chelmsford 58
Wellington College, Crowthorne 75
Richard Huish College 51
Bancrofts School 51
Bromsgrove School 34
Brockenhurst College 34
The Grammar School at Leeds 47
Gower College Swansea (Coleg Gwyr Abertawe) 43
King Edward VI College, Stourbridge 52
Aylesbury Grammar School 31
Benenden School 31
Wyggeston & Queen Elizabeth I College 49
Truro & Penwith College 72
Winstanley College 52
Runshaw College 62
Rugby School 67
Concord College 68
Woodhouse College, Finchley 64
Altrincham Grammar School for Boys 45
Collyers VI Form College, Horsham 46
George Abbot School 33
Dr Challoner's High School for Girls 39
Royal Grammar School, Buckinghamshire 40
Epsom College 36
Newstead Wood School 42
King Edward VI Five Ways School 44
Shrewsbury Sixth Form College 49
Cardinal Newman College, Preston 50
Bilborough College 42
Lycee Francais Charles De Gaulle 42

boys don't want to appear too cheeky after all that you have already done but don't one or two of the A level league tables have pupil numbers entered? The schools who are n't in those tables I suppose who have to be looked up on their website ?

Very interesting numbers. Thanks!

summer, that's a thought certainly. Would it capture any A level and IB mix ? - not sure if some schools do both?

Thanks for the link dapoxen. The official guidance makes it clear that the scheme is not restricted to benefit claimants, just as Atia's school guidance does, and also states in terms that 'one off payments may be made to cover.... the cost of travel to university interviews'. But I'm not expecting an apology anytime soon :)

Boys3 some areas of the country are heavily skewed in terms of applicants to Oxford rather than Cambridge, because of geographical position. Less of the country seems to be skewed the other way, simply by virtue of where Cambridge is. For Londoners of course it makes no odds.

We've had an incredible response with a great many thought provoking and well informed posts.
Perhaps as OP I can refocus the discussion on what prompted my question. As many contributors have documented, Westminster usually gets a higher proportion of applicants into Oxford than most other schools. This year maths has not even managed to get one offer.
We now have the MAT results and can see, for what I think is the first time, that Oxford has rejected candidates who scored over 90 in the MAT. That may indicate that Oxford is seeking more than just the ability to score high grades in exams. As a parent my impression has been that Westminster offers a more rounded education than some others so I would have expected any move in that direction to result in even more Westminsters receiving offers.
FWIW the maths department was pushing Bristol as backup last term and is singing the praises of Warwick as first choice this term.

committedparent, it gets complicated with the backups too. I can't believe that Bristol (or Warwick) are going to make 13 offers to one school for one subject.

Is it possible to get over 90% at the MAT from hard work and being taught more advanced maths (as some overseas students are in the holidays) or would it require the higher natural ability to do very well at more competive degree level?

If I were the parent of am exeptional mathematician and I'd sent them to W for sixth form primarily to support an application for Maths at Oxbridge, I would be feeling very fed up.

ds2 is something of a maths spud and always has been: I was wondering if we were doing him a disservice by not sending him to a maths crammer for sixth form, but reading this I think not.

FWIW the maths department was pushing Bristol as backup last term.

Why? Bristol isn't that good for maths. Why not push Warwick, Imperial, UCL etc instead?

I have said on many threads: Maths is predominantly a recruiting subject outside a handful of universities. Getting 13 offers from Bristol for maths students predicted AAA/AA*A+ would not be a problem. Warwick offers to (almost) all who look capable of achieving the required A level grades and STEP grades.

Getting 90% on MAT is not on its own sufficient to get an offer - if MAT was sufficient as a selector Oxford wouldn't interview at all, they would just take the top ranking students on MAT. MAT can be affected by knowledge of more advanced maths.

summer Have some rough and ready figures. I think the OP makes a more than fair point about getting this thread refocused so I'll start another thread and put in on that.

Rosin, I understand that if your exceptional child did not get an offer, you would feel disappointed, but would it be down to the school? Would it mean that the school had failed him and you would blame them?

I think many parents do feel like this. They had a bright child, they paid their fees and somehow those 2 things should be enough to guarantee success.

However there is no certainty in this Oxbridge thing. Every year very good candidates from W and from other schools fail to get places. Many of them would have managed very well there, but ended up having to go elsewhere. There were just too many very very good students and not all of them, not even those who had been to a top school could have a place.

I imagine W would say that they have taught the DS to do maths, to love it and to be able to take it further WHEREVER he ends up. He has been well prepared in the broadest sense of an education for the next phase of education and life. The independent learning skills and curiosity and perseverance etc etc are what it is all about, because they equip for life, not just 3 years in an Oxbridge college. I imagine that W would say their unique selling point is this broad and enriching education, but that parents want it to be an almost shoe-in to Oxbridge. There lies the problem and root of the disappointment. Even W cannot offer a guarantee.

uilen (although I realise you're not Oxford)/ OP do either of you know what the average MAT score was this year a) to get an interview and b) to get an offer? And uilen would you think the MAT or the interview would be more decisive in securing an offer?

Oxford Maths General Admissions feedback is here (RH column 1/2 to 2/3rds of the way down).

but I guess the point is - given the pressure on Oxbridge to demonstrate wider, open access - is the W education proving a disadvantage. ie are they expecting MORE because they've had the opportunities and privilege of W?

ds1 has just received an Oxbridge offer (science, not maths), so I am very aware of the vagaries and inpredictability of the system. I would have in no sense blamed the (nonselective state) school, if he hadn't got an offer.

Oxbridge interviews tend to work on the principle that they will give you questions on material you have never encountered before and see how you cope. If it's clear you've seen that sort of problem before, then they will give you something different/harder. Is it possible that W maths students are so heavily prepped/exposed to so much above and beyond the further maths curriculum, that they were therefore given super-charged interview questions to compensate, but didn't respond well independently? I don't know, I'm hypothesizing here.

So MAT is just a test of advanced knowledge. I'm not sure why it could n't incorporate more Olympiad-type questions so that the interview was n't the only snapshot ?

ChocolateWombat I agree with what you say, the worth of a privileged Westminster education can't be limited to undergraduate entry statistics. Also the expansion of competition for UK university places means that there is often a minimal differential between candidates which can be tipped slightly either way by the vagaries of a day's performance.

MAT is definitely not just a test of advanced knowledge but advanced knowledge/lots of practice could provide a possible advantage in some questions. The same could be said for STEP, although both MAT and STEP try as far as possible to test depth of understanding, rather than advanced knowledge and practice.

It is unusual for a candidate scoring over 90 in MAT to be rejected, but it is not unknown, as the chart for the 2014 feedback in Dapoxen's link shows. The same chart reinforces what I wrote above: offers are not made according to MAT scores, with some students scoring 50-59 receiving offers when others with 90+ didn't. (MAT is considered unreliable for a number of reasons, arguably more so than STEP which is taken almost one academic year later.)

are they expecting MORE because they've had the opportunities and privilege of W?

I would imagine so. Someone mentioned the Radley Oxbridge prep advice on another thread a little while ago - that says that they recommend that only their top further maths set, doing TEN modules at the end of y12, apply to Oxbridge. At most schools, someone who almost has two maths A levels at the end of y12 would be considered brilliant at maths. It's all relative.

I can only speak for myself when I say that my expectations are high.

I certainly expect a top-flight education for DS (and DD when she joins too), but that's more to do with the day-to-day experience than ultimate outcome IYSWIM.

I'm absolutely not wedded to Oxbridge, and wouldn't be surpirsed or disappointed if either of my two went off i different directions.

WordFactory
Entirely sums up our attitude too!
Our DC are at a similar school, and we chose it not because of the outcome, but because of the 'ride' - fantastic learning experience surrounded by other very able, curious, hardworking peers.
We have no expectations of Oxbridge or otherwise - maybe our DC will apply, maybe not - most pupils do go to top universities ( although increasingly in the US rather than the UK - the real high flyers now seem to aim for Ivy League instead) but we will not feel any regret at the money we have spent - the teaching and learning has been beyond our wildest expectations. (I am a teacher myself, in the state sector).

Dapoxen Fascinating feedback - very clear.
To me the most striking thing was the increase (more than 25%) of overseas applicants since 2013 - clearly will have a massive impact on offers made to UK students if large numbers of very clever overseas students applying.
What they don't say is how many offers were made to overseas students.