Worst forms of selection in schools: Views of M'snetters

[thankgodimretired]

Interviews?
Questions concerning parental income?
Academic selection?
Previous school reports?
Decisions made by committee about whether to exclude certain individuals from attending?

Having just recently retired from the teaching profession, I am struck by how little things have changed over the course of my working life. There are certainly less overtly selective schools in the state sector than when I started out teaching in South London in the late 1970's. But the independents, grammars and faith schools appear to be more socially exclusive than at any time.

81% As at DD's school. Top 40 (actually top 56) got at least 10 As. Vast majority do either 10 or 11 GCSEs.

Bit of a silly challenge Talkin

Happy. You have bought your son a £300k "franchise" and as long as he does not go against "franchise" rules he will be "Fine" all his life. He would have course got the same academic results at the grammar school, but he would not have had the chance of the franchise would he.

The "Franchise" is the very reason (though not quite the same with girls schools) that my brother sends his DD to Kate's old school in Berkshire (the Bullying one) . Maybe I would have bought in to it myself, if I had transferred
to Benenden at 14 but since I stayed at the "Modern" I am able to see what a privileged "entitled "bunch, public school kids are ( Niece excepted of course because she is my family).

OP was discussing the vast majority of State selective schools which are by god or gonads, not by exams

and it is amusing that yet again the staunchest defenders of state selective schools are people who choose not to use the main state system.

Its interesting that there are not loads of posters from "ordinary" grammar schools saying how wonderful selection is.

The fact DCs comp comes up short against Westminster and Winchester just shows that you have not utterly wasted the £1/4 m that it costs to send an "on the curve" child to those schools .

I'm still glad that the OP has either retired or was just a wind up merchant.

And I'll go back to the real world of getting on with CT calcs now.

Smoke your right he would have got the same results at the grammar school but not the same extra curricular/cultural/intellectual opportunities. That's what I'm buying into. I've said this repeatedly and I will say it again I don't give a fuck about any "franchise"/contacts/old school tie/old boys network and frankly I haven't got the faintest idea what "franchise" you think my money has bought. I suspect neither has my DS. My DH went to top public school he also has achieved what he has without any franchise/contacts etc. Frankly after a few years of leaving school no one cares what school you went too.
We believe it's not who you know but what you know and what sort of person you as an individual are that counts in life. We're also by the way not hoping he'll pursue a career in law, the city, and most importantly and God forbid politics.

Hello everyone, I'm back.

Many of my colleagues in the teachers' unions sent their own kids to
selective grant-maintained schools.

Even several OEs and Old Carthusians I know chose to send their children to Cardinal Vaughan and Blair's Oratory, I mean, wouldn't you if you had the same choice today? All kids and parents were interviewed, some scholarships were awarded and previous school reports were taken into account.

A tiny number of these selective schools were in all but name Public schools operating their own entrance systems without the fees! Giving a kid from a rough side of town a chance in life.

Now they all go to McDonald's Academy (Harris).

Talkin. Well do I count as an "Ordinary Grammar school person"

Educated In a Kent Modern School (though was accepted at Benenden at 14 dad refused to pay) so back I went 321 Could have won the "Car but won "Dusty Bin" instead. DD1 Educated Ken,t High School in North East Kent though ABB is pretty good for there.
DD2, DS currently yr11, Yr9 in below average grammar schools on the "costa del Kent". That's what they call it in Calais I believe.

You know, talkin, I never thought of that before but I wonder if you are right that a lot of pro-selection arguments come from users of private education not of state grammars?

Nah, there are loads of pro state selection folk in the state sector.

MN is rammed with threads about how to prep for them and where to move to in order to get in them.

And in RL, they're massively oversubscribed.

thankgodimretired A tiny number of these selective schools were in all but name Public schools operating their own entrance systems without the fees! Giving a kid from a rough side of town a chance in life. With regard to the "Giving a kid from a rough side of town a chance in life", which selective schools are you referring to?

My father, who has spent his entire teaching career in academically selective independent schools, went to visit a school on Monday - inner city, non selective comp. He went as he is helping them set up a classics department.

He was so impressed after observing the Latin lesson, being shown round the school, and being invited to observe other lessons that he emailed the head teacher to say how amazingly the school was doing.

Sod it, since it's a favourable report, I'll state the school's name: Sidney Stringer in Coventry.

He did not say "for a comp" in his praise or " for an inner city school" - just that it was fantastic by any standard.

MumTryingHerBest,

I am referring to a tiny number of formerly selective grant-maintained schools, the list below is not exhaustive

Liverpool Blue Coat
London Oratory
Cardinal Vaughan (Chelsea, London)
John Fishers(sic?) in Surrey
QEGS Penrith
Hasmonean (Barnet, London)

caff2 I've done some work in the state sector and a very well regarded successful school it was too with excellent results. It was very good but by the standards of DS2's school fantastic is not the first word that springs to mind.
I'm afraid I can't name it due to confidentiality.

and it is amusing that yet again the staunchest defenders of state selective schools are people who choose not to use the main state system.

Are you including me in that Talkin?

I do hope not. Because all I would like to see is that no child is consigned to the sort of school that you have described as a 'shit-hole'. The one that you drive past every morning to take your DC to the high-achieving comp they attend.

Whether that is achieved by re-introducing selection or by some other means I really don't care.

I find it fascinating that you are such a staunch defender of a system in which your nearest school is utterly unacceptable to you. And this in a county that is recognised as educationally strong.

Well to answer the OP, all are awful, and where there are catchment areas that are uniformly wealthy that is awful too, but not, IMO, as awful, in principle, because the MO of that school isn't to provide education to the wealthy/clever/faithful and shut the door on the rest, at least. Though a situation in which as school has an entire catchment of wealthy kids is pretty rare, it is certainly not a good thing.

Marni, there will always be 'oiks' and the place for them is in the completely non-selective school.

Cooper's Company and the other schools mentioned would admit well behaved young people from a poor side of town, an incentive for the parents to raise them in an orderly fashion.

I appreciate my views may come across as a touch strong, but trust me, I'm a teacher.

Marni, there will always be 'oiks' and the place for them is in the completely non-selective school.

Words fail me. I sincerely hope you weren't a teacher.

You speak as somebody who has never taught, you don't stop being a teacher overnight.

Oh, and by the way being a teacher sometimes means telling a few home truths, sorry if I got your back up but let's cut to the chase here, selection works, full stop.

Most benefit, a few fail.

Well, all I can say is: I thank god you're retired too!

*thankgodimretired, do you think these schools:

Liverpool Blue Coat
London Oratory
Cardinal Vaughan (Chelsea, London)
John Fishers(sic?) in Surrey
QEGS Penrith
Hasmonean (Barnet, London)

are still "Giving a kid from a rough side of town a chance in life"?

Thank God. What type of schooling would you like for the 20% or so of students who struggle to achieve at least D grade standard at GCSE level.

I have stated an opinion about a third type of school and how it could work. The idea is that companies be signed up in conjunction with the school gaining incentives from the Government for employing such students. You on the other hand have given no ideas how we could "improve" the education for the students who are struggling with academic education.

OP the independent sector also has oiks even the super selectives. Why make the assumption that for oiks the best place for them or indeed the only place for them is a "completely non selective".

Very clever, SteamingNit, or should that be, Nitwit?

The inconvenient truth is a hard pill to swallow. I suppose all children should attend a McDonald's Academy, in your world view.

You write as someone who has never learnt about the comma splice, it must be said Op

Another reason for us to be glad you're retired!

"Trust me, I'm a teacher" - were you that patronising as a teacher?

"Selection works, full stop" - would you have accepted that as an argument from your pupils? Where is your evidence except your anecdotal experience?

I've been a teacher. I have seen comprehensive education working. That's anecdotal too, but I fail to see why you think your personal opinion based on a single teaching career is any more valid than mine.

smokepole, I'm with you one-hundred-and-ten-percent, a well though-out idea for dealing with the 10/20%.

MumTrying, I'm really not sure, are you familiar with any of the schools I mentioned?