Worst forms of selection in schools: Views of M'snetters

[thankgodimretired]

Interviews?
Questions concerning parental income?
Academic selection?
Previous school reports?
Decisions made by committee about whether to exclude certain individuals from attending?

Having just recently retired from the teaching profession, I am struck by how little things have changed over the course of my working life. There are certainly less overtly selective schools in the state sector than when I started out teaching in South London in the late 1970's. But the independents, grammars and faith schools appear to be more socially exclusive than at any time.

saintly I know all about fighting your DS's corner my DS1 ( who up till yr 11 was at an outstanding high achieving academy their words not mine although I accept it was the counties top performing school now well regarded 6th form college) has according to his ed psych report "moderate" dyslexia described as moderate because he can read and comprehend well, has an IQ that puts him the top 5% but processing is bottom 3% but not bad enough to be statemented. Our heads are sore with over the years pointlessly repeatedly banging them against a wall stuffed with lazy couldn't care less lying teachers governors etc. In our experience nothing changes. Secondly I've heard from others about the sort of provision that can be offered in the state sector frankly I'm not impressed then I'm in a financial position where I can afford to be unimpressed.
You are right saintly GCSE's/A levels aren't going to stretch the super bright which is why we choose DS2's school, only offering the harder Pre U, unashamedly intellectual, combined with extensive variety of activities that only full boarding can provide.

Hmm okay - I suppose my point is that the number of children who cannot be served by A levels/GCSE's is going to be very small - and like any child whose needs cannot be met in those ways you, as parents, have to expect a battle (usually because the provision doesn't exist - and probably isn't going to - I suppose the state could open a few boarding schools for the super bright, but many with children eligible wouldn't choose boarding). The law only has a responsibility to provide a 'suitable' education - not the best - obviously with money people might exercise their choice & choose to pay - if there's enough of a market someone will be providing something - even if you have to travel a long way.

In terms of typically bright kids (ds2 & ds3 are what I would call typical bright kids) then I do believe the state can provide for them. We're looking at secondaries for ds3 now. He's a child I could see at Oxford in the future - he has a very intense interest in one area (history) & obsessively reads around it - and likes historical holidays etc. Could he get to Oxford from the grammar? Yep - if he works hard enough. Could he get to Oxford from the local comp? Yep - if he works hard enough. Would there be a difference between the GCSE's he would take between the two? Not in terms of number, but at the grammar school he could take Latin, history AND ancient history if he wanted. At the comp he could only take history (we'd probably find some out of school Latin teaching for him if he went anywhere other than the grammar - no other schools offer it locally). Would he be held back by having different GCSE choices? No, I don't believe so.

Ds2, currently at the grammar (supposedly a superselective as it takes from miles and miles away - but not really because there isn't the population density to be super selective) will give up Latin & wouldn't go to Oxford in a million years (he's bright, but not what I'd call fiercely academic). Does the grammar serve his needs? Yep. Would the comp we put as second choice serve his needs? Yep.

The vast majority of bright children will be like ds2 & ds3 and their needs can be met, IMO, by local schools - probably the main issue being over subscription (not a huge problem at secondary in my area - so we do have a genuine choice of secondaries with a different feel/focus).

That doesn't mean children with significantly different needs don't exist - but they're rare - and then all you can do is do your best. Ds2 for example happens to be very talented in one particular area - we could have sent him to a school specialising in that - but he would have had to have boarded. We chose not to because we didn't particularly want him boarding (& couldn't really have afforded it - even if he'd won a scholarship - it would have been a stretch). So he goes to a good local school & is getting loads of experience outside school (& the good local school allows him time off to do that).

Any school has pros & cons - and as parents all we can do is weigh then up.

Incidentally - has anyone been following the progress is Wey ecadamy? That plans to offer a specific 'gifted' programme (and Latin - hoorah) - academically I liked the look of it - although the cons might outweigh the pros for me.

Oh just to add - had we lived elsewhere in the country we may well have chosen a specialist school for ds2. We could have afforded day fees with or without a scholarship. I just don't see him not being able to access those schools as a huge disadvantage - pros & cons again. Of course that's a decision he/we may revisit at sixth form. (Maybe he'll go for the Eton scholarship ;) )

saintlyjimjams, nowhere have you mentioned the 'quality' of the other offerings at your choice of schools for your DS3. Does the extra-curricular provision not matter? The lunches? The teachers on patrol? You see, I'm not one of those that think comps are good enough for the majority and it's just the super-bright that need something better. All children deserve better than what's on offer at my local 'good' comp where the Head wheels out the high achievers at every available opportunity and those that work hard but achieve less are forgotten. Where controlled assessment is a joke and extra classes are offered willynilly to those students that couldn't be bothered to listen first time round. Where teachers spent all break time phoning parents asking for their cooperation and 20+ emails do the rounds because student X kicked off in form time. This culture of complacency is not something that I would immerse my DC in through choice.

saintly you're right only a small number of children can't be served by a good state school and I agree particularly in a rural area it's not realistic to create schools just for them. Travelling is an issue and one if the reasons we turned down the place at our "nearest" super selective and off course parents are squeamish about boarding. DS2 was at a small 80 pupils primary one of their justifications for not doing anything is that they were "statistically unlikely to have another super bright child along for 25 years" so why buy resources, hire staff for one child?
I happened to have the ear of the head of that particular LEA he agreed it shouldn't be like that and that provision can and should be made (paid for by the school the child attends) but as I said before it was IMO distinctly mediocre. Many super bright are also simply made to do more GCSE's/A levels often earlier and this is meant to be something good, I personally don't agree, super bright can be as easily turned off exams as any one else, I believe they benefit from being stretched and challenged in other ways unrelated to state exams.

I agree with you that collecting GCSE's is dull and somewhat pointless.

The super super bright should come with extra resources of course (and the school are right really - why buy resources used once every 25 years - it's one reason why I took a lot more care with ds1's statement when he was in mainstream, than when he was in special - the statement was necessary in mainstream to buy in things like SALT, which doesn't need to be bought in in in a special school). I think you can go after that for your super bright child - but like any of us going after resources for an exceptional child (in either direction), you just have to weigh up whether it's worth it or not - and people like you have other choices of course - and it's not hugely surprising if someone chooses to pay for the 'best' education for their child, rather than the 'suitable' education the State is legally obliged to provide.

pickled - way back I mentioned the excellent extra curricular activities at ds2's state grammar. The state schools we've looked at so far have all had good extra curricular activities. The local comp btw has 40%+ on FSM. It has excellent extra curricular activities in performing arts and engineering, as well as more obvious ones such as sports. Also tutor groups are arranged around interests and students often do extended projects/extra curricular activities around those interests - often before school. It's not something I'd worry about. DS3 has already decided if he goes there he'll be spending a lot of time in the library (!) (and they do do quite a bit with the library kids). I looked around after school and there were quite a few classrooms of kids getting some extra help from teachers, or taking part in activities. Of course they're not providing the same as a public boarding school, but I'm not sure why anyone would expect them to.

But I've had this argument about extra curricular activities on a different thread. If you child is at a very high level in an extra curricular activity then it's not really fair to expect a regular school to provide for you at that level. DS2 takes part in his extra curricular stuff nationally (and internationally now thinking about it - although that will be very very rare indeed for him) - his school supports him by allowing time off. He can do a lot of it in school holidays. If he needed to do more than that, then I could see we might be tempted by a specialist scholarship to a private school or one od the specialist schools I mentioned earlier. The local public school very much specialises in sports - and I do know a few kids who compete at a national level who go there because they have to miss so much school and while a state school will allow them time off the public school also provides catch up lesson and tutors etc. I can see why parents would make that choice and I can understand why the local state schools can't compete with the level of support.

But if you're looking at general enrichment type activities - yes all the local state schools provide something sensible (imo).

There is a huge difference between want and expect. I place very high value on the type of extra curricular activities/opportunities offered by DS2's school, I don't and have never expect state schools to provide them but I still want them so luckily can pay to get them.
I very much doubt a super bright child would get a statement. It's just not seen as an issue by many state schools.

Many kids with SN don't get statements though (the majority). DS2 is 15 and has one spoken word - so he really is exceptional.

Yes i agree with that re want and expect happygardening. I don't particularly want ds2's extra curricular stuff done at school - because he can do it to a higher level accessing what is available outside school iyswim - I don't think many (any?) private schools could compete in his area either - except the very specialist ones. He does a whole mix of stuff related to it - partially limited by geography but still plenty to choose from. I expect schools to provide something (and the enrichment weeks at ds2's school are brilliant) - but like the freedom of not being tied to a school for the activities.

Anyway what do people think about Wey ecademy for meeting the needs of the gifted (and other groups). I've linked to the page on gifted children as that's what is being discussed here. I can't decide whether the pros would outweigh the cons or not. If it gets the go ahead it will be an outsider choice of school for ds3 - it will go on the list to be considered anyway (not because he's bright or whatever, just because he's a funny fish). I'm interested in a range of views to try and decide what mine are! :)

Saintly I might have considered it for the DDs. Actually, for DS too. It's come a bit too late for us now - luckily DD2 has settled nicely into the grammar (so far) and is encountering (as yet) no resistance to the flexibility requirements for time off.

No I wasn't sure how the time off requests would go, but the schools has been very supportive indeed. I have heard if I had made the same requests at the girls equivalent school they would have been refused - which would have been problematic tbh.

I think I'd like Wey if there were other people doing it nearby for the social side of things. Although something I like about secondary is the independence it teaches (travelling there alone, having a wide group of friends your parents don't know etc), and I'm not sure how easily that would be recreated. Academically I think it's a great idea for a particular type of child.

We're off to see a very different (in terms of educational approach) Free School this week. Am interested to see whether I think it would be disastrous or brilliant for ds2. I think I quite enjoy nosing around different types of schools!

Maybe I am lucky - as I said earlier there aren't really (yet - that may change with increasing birth rate) oversubscription issues in my area. Obviously the grammar schools are oversubscribed, and one comprehensive was last year - we're out of area for it - but that still left a wide range of choices. We personally are limited by bus routes, as I have no idea what ds1 will be doing soon so ds2 and ds3 have to be able to get to their schools under their own steam - but that still gives us a lot of schools to choose from.