Worst forms of selection in schools: Views of M'snetters

[thankgodimretired]

Interviews?
Questions concerning parental income?
Academic selection?
Previous school reports?
Decisions made by committee about whether to exclude certain individuals from attending?

Having just recently retired from the teaching profession, I am struck by how little things have changed over the course of my working life. There are certainly less overtly selective schools in the state sector than when I started out teaching in South London in the late 1970's. But the independents, grammars and faith schools appear to be more socially exclusive than at any time.

[smokepole]

Talkin. I wonder whether you have had a look at the "To be tired of Teachers
Exaggerating thread on AIBU". It goes on to talk about two twins in yr11 , who are both struggling to achieve C grades in English/Maths. The negative comments from teachers and from posters about their future employment opportunities are very sad and depressing. The third way I have described could be a way to get such pupils in to carers that normally require A level or degree level qualifications. Employers and companies need to look away from solely academic qualifications , sadly in many cases they will not give a chance to a keen young person because of not having a magic C in English/Maths. The way to change that would be to give companies incentives to employ such people.

[happygardening]

No Talkin you clearly stated that you "challenged any selective school to get better results from it's top 40 academic kids than DD and her friends got".
You didn't say except schools whom only select with "kids "decent" enough to pass their selection interviews."
I'm not knocking you DD's achievements or her school but you challenged and I responded.

[Molio]

Talkin how many children were in the whole of the Y11 cohort at your DDs school last year? I'm not clear what you mean by 'the whole group of 40'. What percentage of the entire cohort is that? Or are there only 40 children in each year?

Also, would you mind saying which 13 subjects these children do/ can do? Is it Methods of Maths, Application of Maths, Eng Lang, Eng Lit, A MFL, RE, Biology, Chemistry, Physics and then four options? What are the options? How does it work? It sounds as though they have great breadth but are all 13 subjects full GCSEs/ IGCSEs?

[TalkinPeace]

Do an advanced search. I CBA to type it all again.

Do you agree with the OP BTW?

[tallyhoho]

I think OP has retired from the thread/forum. Very good at posing questions, not so forthcoming with replies.

[happygardening]

Talkin I can't comment or agree/disagree with the OP's statement that state schools are being less overly selective or that faith/grammar schools are more socially exclusive because I don't know enough about them. But I think that many independent schools in particular in the boarding sector (apart from the tiny few that offer substantial bursaries) are more "socially exclusive" than at any time well at least than they were when I went to school 30+ years ago.

[smokepole]

Happy. Its hardly surprising that boarding schools costing up to £35K a year are more socially exclusive than 30 years ago. 30 years a public school education cost about £10k Pa now its £35k pa if the cost had stayed with inflation, the cost would probably be around £20k pa not 35K pa. The rise in fees as out-stripped everything apart from property prices . Private, Public schools are far more socially , economically exclusive than ever, sadly it will mean that the country will become more elite than ever.

That is the reason we need academic state schools, the brightest who can come and take the "toffs" on at their own game and beat them. The public school system needs taking down, ultimately it is the reason why we have the politicians we have now.

[happygardening]

Smoke I'm all in favour of academic state schools in fact my DS had a place at one of the best ones but I don't see why independent schools academic or not they need "taking down". Why can't both exist then those who can pay can decide where they wish to send their DC's.

[TalkinPeace]

That is the reason we need academic state schools, the brightest who can come and take the "toffs" on at their own game and beat them. The public school system needs taking down, ultimately it is the reason why we have the politicians we have now.

Do you really think that the twerps running the country are academically bright rather than just rich, supremely arrogant and well connected?

The "toffs" want selection in Private schools as then the "scum" as they have always called us behind closed doors fight among ourselves and are weaker.

Abolish selection in the state sector especially by religious extremists
Make all of the kids realise that they are all "on the curve"
and they will do better at fighting the unmerited arrogance of those who have been handed the silver spoons.

[OwlCapone]

I see this has turned into the usual pointless argument.

Unless you are in favour of non selective state with no other option available and ignoring the fact that the wealthy will simply "home educate" using private tutors there's no point commenting.

[happygardening]

"the wealthy will "home educate" using private tutors"
Of course they won't they will educate their DC's abroad we live in a globalised world if the wealthy can't get what they want in the UK they'll find it somewhere else.

[TalkinPeace]

agree utterly with Happy
the snobby boarding schools are a nice little earner for the UK as rich bods from all over the communist world send their kids here to get a good capitalist education.
No country has abolished private education : it just moves abroad and then comes back to govern

In fact the OP's prejudice about decent religious schools has rather more to do with the Home Secretary wanting to clamp down on inward looking and radicalising religious groups taking over schools than it does about the super rich.

[smokepole]

I am not for abolishing Public schools, I just want the best state schools to be as good if not better and make public schools the choice just for foreigners. (maybe I would have been pro public school if my mum had paid that cheque ?).

Private schools are mostly different, because they have developed mainly because of a lack of selective or suitable options for parents. The public school system was set up to "rule" the country and keep everybody else subjugated by it. The comprehensive school system must have been a dream come true for the elite, not only did it control the proletariat , but it also got many buying in to that system. The majority of families bought/buy in to the comprehensive system mainly out of fear of a alternative system. This is the fault of Government policy and insufficient funding in different or specialist areas of education across the last 40-50 years.

[tallyhoho]

Owl, You must be reading a different thread .

OP is conspicuous in her absence and selective in replies. I find thank gods comments bizarre

[Molio]

Talkin it was a perfectly easy question to answer. You can't reasonably throw out a challenge to those of us in selective schools and then go all coy. You blitz these threads with so many posts how could I possibly find the answer in your previous posts without an advanced search taking hours and hours? Your response is either churlish or defensive, not sure which.

So again, but more concisely, please could you tell me:
a) how many children in the entire Y11 cohort at your DD's school in the academic year 2013/14?
b) are all 13 GCSEs full GCSEs/ IGCSEs?

That's no more than three numerals plus one word. You CanBA to issue a direct challenge, so hopefully you CanAlsoBA to take literally two seconds to reply. It's impossible for anyone to reply to you about their own school without knowing those facts.

happygardening how many students are there in your DS2's school's Y11, out of interest?

[TheWordFactory]

Ooh I will take up the challenge talkin

DS school got, from memory, 88% As this year. Not A/A conflated (I've noticed you do that, as if they were one and the same result).

The top 40 boys got all A*s. In fact more than the top forty did. ...

[happygardening]

"Make public schools the choice of foreigners"
Smoke I could have sent my DS to a fantastic school but still I choose to pay. You are deluding yourself if you think all UK very wealthy families will choose to send their DC's to state schools if they were all excellent. Sending your DC to a big name school goes with the territory of being wealthy just like having a yacht, 3-4 other homes, and driving an expensive car. The sort of "toffs" and politicians you talk about don't send their DC's to schools that "developed mainly because a lack of selective or suitable options for parents." Few if any parents are deciding between a place at Eton and their local excellent grammar school.
Mollio there were 125 in yr 11 those with the top fifty IGCSE results made it onto the A list (first draught) no one with less than 8A's s is on it. My DS doesn't know a single boy who got less than 6A's nor does he know anyone that got any B's. But then this is only to be expected. I only responded to talkin's challenge.

[Molio]

Those results are as I'd expect happy and Word. But fantastic too, of course, especially in another odd year for marking. I hope Talkin will return and give a similar de-brief.

How many GCSEs do they take at your DS's school Word and how many students in the cohort?

Clearly there's merit in keeping the number of GCSEs small happy, but how many options do they have - surely almost none? What do they insist on as core?

[smokepole]

Happy.I was not talking about the "Public School" system nor its parents, who have bought in to the "Born to Rule" edict . I was talking about your local private school that developed or grew because of a lack of selective or appropriate schooling available.

People sending their children to the public school system do it for the reason to make contacts and share in the "old school tie network" and proceed in to the City, Politics, Law E.T.C . People who do without cars, holidays, eating out, spending up to 50% of their families take home pay do it because of a lack of appropriate state options.

[tallyhoho]

Which School is/was your DS at TheWord? sorry if you've already posted this haven't looked at whole thread.

[TheWordFactory]

molio there are about 120 usually.

I don't know the number of GCSEs. DS will do 11 but I don't think there's a standard number to be honest.

But you're right it is to be expected. Though talkin did tell me recently that the school isn't that selective. We parents are just led to believe that... By who she didn't say! If she's right, the teaching must be the best I'm the world!!

She also said Win Col wasn't very selective either and being rich was the main entry requirement.

[TheWordFactory]

tally he's at Westminster.

To be honest it's absurdly selective. The results are always daft.

[happygardening]

"People sending their children to the public school system do it for the reason to make contacts and share in the "old school tie network" and proceed in to the City, Politics, Law E.T.C ."
(yawn) not thus old out of date piffle again.
We really only know friends with Dc's at public schools not one claims to do it for contacts (they already have those is multiples), or "the old school tie network" as I've already said they already have contacts in all the right places.
I'm sure many are destined for a career in the city and law but that again goes with the territory. With regard to politicians I can only speak for my DS's school. Thankfully there have been very few Wykehamist politicians the head believes it's because Wykhemist are taught that they should always tell the truth! There have of course historically been many Wykehamist senior civil servants, to quote my neighbour, "the real power behind the thrown".
We know lots of children at Public schools I suspect only one is currently looking like a future politician even PM but he's spent his life mixing with politicians.
Word if talkin is right and money is the main entry requirement for Win Coll rather academic selection then it's IGCSE/Pre U results are truly remarkable!

[BoffinMum]

I went to public school.
Does that mean I have dominion?

[TheWordFactory]

Indeed happy.

Sometimes talkin says the schools are rubbish, that it's the selection process that provides the good grades. Other times she says the selection isn't strict...

Then again I'm certain she said that no pupils at her school got all A*s and that such results were as rare as hens teeth. Now its The Best School In The World with veritable wunderkind ...