'State schools are creating amoral children'

[BurgenSnurgen]

...because state schools are under so much pressure to improve results that there's no time to teach them right from wrong.

So says Chairman of the Independent Schools Association

Bit speechless really. It's giving me the absolute RAGE.

Oh, and for the record, I have no problem at all with elitism.

But all the people you mention rose to the top, Martorana. So obviously it didn't matter so very much if they didn't know how to eat asparagus. I'm sure thinner skinned people would have been put off, but then a thinner skinned person wouldn't make it to Prime Minister status even if they could eat asparagus properly. Btw, I like to eat my asparagus with my fingers and don't give toss whether or not that's "proper."

Mind you, knowing what your audience might or might not find offensive or laughable is rather useful in international diplomacy.

It depends if it bothers you. I would watch to see how asparagus was eaten and change if I thought there was a way to eat it. When in Rome....... etc. As it is I couldn't care less if there is a 'proper' way to eat it. I think we are getting away from the main argument if we are down to how you would eat artichokes, mussels etc

It is all rather like 18th century and landed gentry looking down on those who had the money- but got it from trade- not important, except those who want to cling on to outdated structures of society, despite the inevitability of change.

I think you make my point again. Why do you have to be thicker skinned to rise to the top if you're a "grammar school boy"? And, I have to say, that if you look at the history, those people only rose to the top because the established power base took it's collective eye off the ball for a moment! It's like women having to be 50% better at their jobs to be perceived as being as good as men.

I do agree that a problem with trades and crafts is the notion of inferiors working for masters, which can be off putting for prospective applicants. People need to feel a sense of pride in their work, to know that what they do is a skill acquired through talent, hard work and dedication, not that it is something that inferiors do when they can't earn money another way. It seems to me, there is a particular backlash in this country against being told what to do, and a constant paranoia that you are being laughed at or looked down upon by others, particularly if you are paid less, which is definitely a legacy of the class system - so strongly felt that you could hardly argue that the class system no longer exists.

Delphiniums- of course it is outdated and ridiculous- but that's how it still works.

And the only way it will ever change is if we do something about it.

Martorana I'm glad someone is being realistic about how the class system is thriving.

In my moral rule book, exclusion is a form of bullying. Our education system is doing that on a massive scale simply to pander to the elite. This will undoubtably affect children. Why would we be surprised at their behaviour? They are learning by example.

Martorana - I don't think you have to be thicker skinned to rise to the top if you're a "grammar school boy." David Cameron seems to cope in a very thick skinned way with the deficits of his Eton background. I think one of the things a public school does for you is make you unbelievably thick skinned.

Hear hear Rabbitstew. Or is it here here?

Maybe, what we need is an acknowledgement that not every person with a huge amount to contribute is thick skinned...

Very true rabbitstew. It is a shame isnt it, but a bit the way of the world.
I think what happens is that thinner skinned people end up looking in rather than out though.

Is there really still a lot of "how to eat properly" people left? I rather get the impression that there is not?

I was using the "how to eat properly" as an example of unspoken things which exclude. But yes, there are still a lot of people who care about that sort of thing.

It is a shame, kinsorange - the sensitive, introspective types give up trying to get themselves heard and understood in the end.

I can spot a private educated person a mile away, they can spot me too, those that exclude me on the basis of my schooling or background I really don't want to know.

I've always worked on the principle that if someone wants to exclude me from something, they clearly have something wrong with them.

It's also quite good fun torturing them by turning up, anyway.

We're all the same when we eat asparagus. Just don't go to the toilet/lavatory/WC/convenience/ladies' room/powder room to urinate/do a piss/wee/number 1/tinkle/"powder your nose" at the same time as anyone else, afterwards, that's all I'm saying...

Of course the class system is alive and well and the elite still have a value system that they employ to spot one another, but I think the views of martorana as to what things these might be are absurdly outdates and UK-centric (which in itself marks them out as ancient history).

Knowing how to eat asparagus will matter not one jot to your chance of getting a position in a bank, a fund, a large corp, an international law firm, a media outlet, a publishing house, a leading university etc

Nor will knowing the lexicon of a few public schools.

The world is an entirely changed place and such signifiers are seen as sweet but unimportant in the scheme of things.

I went to Chatham Dockyard (the museum, that is...) the other day. It was rather sad, in a way, looking at the examination papers the young people had to take in order to prove they had the requisite mathematical and logical skills to gain apprenticeships there. All that incredible training, pride, intelligence and skill, no longer required. A craftsman is very much at the mercy of the corporate and political world and the desires of the wealthy and powerful. One day, your incredible skill is needed, the next, it's cheaper to do it elsewhere, or use machines. Years of training and pride down the drain.

Not knowing how to eat asparagus will exclude you from a certain group of people!!!!! I read it all now. I don't know what circles you move in Mart but I don't know anyone who gives a rats arse if you don't know how to eat asparagus.
It's so easy to make assumptions about other people who we feel we have little in common with, to assume that they are nasty, narrow minded, elitist, common, arrogant, uneducated, crude or what ever. Maybe I'm just lucky but I found over the years that most people from whatever background are pretty decent if and it's a big if you treat them in a decent civilised way. I recently went away everyone there could sail (round the world type sailers) I was the only one who didn't know how to sail I admitted it nobody cared in fact they were delighted to show me hoping to add another convert to their numbers (unlikely).
I do to know how old you are Mart but I think it's about time you started burying you misconceptions of people and just accept them for what they are maybe, then they won't exclude you for not know how to eat asparagus.

I wish I hadn't mentioned the bloody apparatus now- it was only a throw away remark.

But it has been seized on so nobody has to address any of the other points I have made. Hey ho.

So. The playing field is level. Everyone, regardless of background has an equal chance of becoming a "mover and shaker". The class system is dead. Nobody is ever judged by language or accent or background. And, qua HG's sailing example, the privileged at always ready with a friendly helping hand to pull the disadvantaged into their circle. Have I got that right? Phew- what a relief.

My DH's company still find their trade is very much in demand by the wealthy and powerful. Attemps at making cheaply abroad have not as yet been successful. A handful of companies do what they do.
To answer a point up thread my DH finds that people don't want to train for 5 + years to get truly proficient.
He recently attempted to fill a vacancy created by someone retiring (an exceedingly skilful manual job) as always many have applied waving certificates of competency, 6 staff later and the job remains vacant, one straight from college only lasted it a week "I didn't realise the job was so hard" another worked along side the chap retiring having admitted he didn't know how to do a key aspect of the job after a few weeks he said it wasn't for him as it was too complicated, another after a month returned to his original company because he couldn't cope with the standard required and so on.
So the vacancy remains unfilled despite being advertised on numerous occasions. They even tried to recruit a trainee, once your competent (5yrs of training) £35k would not be an unreasonable salary and one applied but asked if he could learn it in two years "like his friends were doing at college", when told no he went away "I don't want to spend that much if my life learning to be an X"
My DH will tell you that highly skilled tradesmen are very much in demand in London, good money can be earned but vacancies remain empty.

I don't think it's so much the asparagus know-how (and add to that, Jerusalem artichoke) but being the "right" sort of person does still count in certain areas. And some people do still do the bad smell face at grammar school products, but are fine with comprehensively-educated people. I suppose grammar = trying and attempting to rise above one's station in a Hyacinth Bucket type of way.

In terms of state schools creating "amoral" children, well, I would say the exact opposite occurs. Ok, perhaps you could argue that some private schools have more time/money/facilities to produce Renaissance men/women but in terms of decency, I think it's the state school pupils who win the day. Just looking at the prep school kids who attend the school next to my house and I see some arrogant little twerps. I don't think humility and regard for others is on that school's syllabus.