'State schools are creating amoral children'

[BurgenSnurgen]

...because state schools are under so much pressure to improve results that there's no time to teach them right from wrong.

So says Chairman of the Independent Schools Association

Bit speechless really. It's giving me the absolute RAGE.

Thank you.

Interesting. Why? Nothing to do with anyone I know, btw - my children are still in primary school and I went to university, so am currently assuming they will want to do the same. However, it would be interesting to know what is really thought of the alternative routes, as there do appear to be more of them these days.... I know that when I still worked in the law, becoming a solicitor via a route other than university was pretty damn hard, for example, and suspect very much it still is, but I know nothing about accountancy, just that alternatives to a degree then accountancy are being pushed quite hard at the moment. Are firms being disingenuous and just wanting cannon fodder to know its place and stay in it?

Sorry, computer being slow, so didn't see the posts in between!... Are high attrition rates putting firms off offering these schemes? Because tbh, a high attrition rate doesn't surprise me hugely. There's a high attrition rate when it comes to university graduates completing chartered accountancy qualifications, isn't there?

There is, but it's not so high. Due to the pyramid structure in firms, trainees of whatever stripe will always be cannon fodder first and foremost. All will not win prizes. So you have to ask yourself, if the odds suggest you won't be a lifer, or headhunted to the top, what will your options be at the point you have to spread your wings. Will they be limited. Will you have transferable skills. You probably will have some money behind you but how long will it last. That sort of thing. To be fair some people might want to make a few bob while gaining an entry level qualification and then move on to something else. But at this point it doesn't look like a good bet to me. It's also market and politically driven and the market may change and the politics may change in the blink of an eye. Or slightly longer - but you get my drift.

There are other objections too - I'm keeping a very weather eye for any signs of women taking up these 'opportunities' disproportionately compared to young men, and what the knock on effect might be.

Sorry, I didn't answer one of your questions - as far as I am aware (and I am aware of quite a lot) firms as a general thing have never had a problem with attrition rates. Survival of the fittest etc. Many individuals worry hugely about attrition rates, of course.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is more often women than men. If I look in my local paper, there are plenty of part-time jobs for people in the sorts of roles that the AAT qualification trains you up for. Quite a few of them look like they wouldn't be too bad to fit around the school run... so if you decided not to be a high flyer, you would actually still have a qualification that makes you employable.

I do a lot of school runs. Always have done.

No way I would have been able to do any school runs if I'd continued along the path I started. The female partners I worked for either had house husbands or nannies to do that. Mostly they spoke to their children on the telephone at bedtime.

I've been lucky. :) I've made choices that turned out to be good but it was generally luck rather than judgement.

I think girls, from whatever background, posh or decidedly not, should hear the good stories about what can be achieved as well as the horror stories. Then they can make up their own minds about AAT vs ACA (or ACCA, CIMA, CIPFA). I don't think the thought process should be: female. Not posh? AAT's the natural route for you. Because it might not be.

Yeah, so anyway: is the results culture creating amoral students in state schools in a way it isn't in private? Not in my opinion or experience, no. I think schools are much more focused on morality and generally Being Nice than they used to be.

And I think the fact that the discussion has diversified into Oxbridge, arcane public school lexicons, AAT etc, just probably shows that the original debate had very little mileage in it, to be honest. Silly thing to say. Silly man.

The problem is that any thread like this always comes round to some people saying "well that just shows that state schools are crap" and some people trying to explain why they aren't. Very depressing.

I think that having such a huge percentage of children and young people feeling that they are second best, they haven't been tutored through to the selective or grammar, they haven't had the ability to pay their way for privilege is bound to have a detrimental effect on morals.

From the age of around 8 or 9 they are acutely aware of the children whose parents fuss and push, who maybe move out to the private sector, leaving their friends because somewhere else is "better". It must make them feel pretty bad about themselves.

This country is so vastly divided, it's all about the money now.

My solution to this is to ensure that the trades are as valued as the academic subjects. This will need a massive shift in culture. The amount of study hours that go into becoming a skilled hairdresser, chef or carpenter are as many as a degree, yet these skills are completely undervalued as qualifications and the hard work involved simply isn't recognised.

We all land on this planet made up of pretty much the same raw materials yet 50% of us are told through most of their lives that other people are 'better', and that other schools are 'better'. That is amoral. Society that favours the privileged is amoral. Kids are just kids - we mould them and we shape them and it's time society took responsibility for the effects of their unequal system.

Britain still has a class system and it is perpetuated in education.

Your right TOSN the debate has little millage because few think teaching children a moral compass is this black and white and few believe that ether sector have a monopoly in this area.
Not wishing to go over the same area again but frankly I think few would think that labelling one Sunday as "X" the other as "Y" is exactly an example of an "arcane public school lexicon". I could give you some fantastic examples if you really want both official and unofficial but I very much doubt your interested and also don't wish to fan your existing prejudices.
I agree unreal let's value our trades more, in particular skilled manufacturing, my DH is desperate for highly skilled trades people in his area of work, but like so many other areas a trade that took at the very least 5 years to learn it has been broken down often into 6 short terms many simply refuse to train for longer than this. Those emerging although initially confident in their own ability quickly realise that they completely lack the necessary skills required for the highest quality work. They resent the lowish levels of pay (£9-10 per hour) that their employers are prepared to give to someone who only marginally more skilled than a good labour and who are completely commercially unaware, not realising there is a correlation between productivity, payment by the client, and company finance. Many are encouraged on these training courses by school career depts. because it's seen as an area that the less able should pursue but in fact requires high levels of attention to detail, the ability to understand exceedingly complex drawings which are often 3D, an excellent grasp of math in particular geometry and an eye for design/proportion.
He has constant vacancies in all areas including lower level management positions, many train, emerge with armfuls of impressive qualifications, work for them for a couple of months and go off and work in shops like B and Q.
And it's not just his area of work they work extensively alongside artisan trades and all tell the same story. The irony of the whole situation is that with the rise of the global super wealthy/elite and in particular with so many based in London that they worked constantly through the recession, hiring staff and now they and others in this area have so much work they're turning it away due to lack of appropriately trained staff. Someone was complaining to my DH that no one would even quote for some work with an estimated price tag of 1/2 a million (approx two months work for three people), my DH simply said he hadn't enough appropriately highly skilled staff to take it on. Only the other day someone was telling my DH that now at least £75k+ pa (guaranteed) and finishing every day at 4.30 was the current going rate for one type of skilled tradesman in London. Although not a fortune a salary many university student would surely be happy to earn.
Of course we should encourage children from all backgrounds to go to Uni, but we should also encourage the able from all backgrounds oto consider other areas and proper old fashioned apprenticeships. They might be surprised at what's out there.

It was me that teased a little about Y Sundays. The point I was trying to make was that one of the problems we have in this country is the presence of exclusive "clubs"- which all have rules so that people know who is, as Margaret Thatcher put it, "one of us". The movers and shakers of our society all, with a few exceptions, belong to these clubs. It's easy to say, as I'm sure HG would, that it's just an easy shorthand, but saying Y Sunday just excluded practically everyone else on the thread. The other Winchester parent knew what it meant. So did I, but I bet practically nobody else on the thread did. It's a trivial example, of course, but similar things happen all the time. Sometimes it's deliberate, but usually I don't think it is. People don't think about stuff like this- they don't see how the unwritten rules can be exclusionary(is that a word?) and keep the status quo trundling along. There are loads of examples- all the public school language, formal table manners......I could go on. But I won't

I suspect some posters will amuse themselves at my expense about this post- that's fine. But it doesn't make me any less right!

I can't see that we will move forward until we value trades and skills, other than an academic route. MN is as much to blame as anyone else. Many a time people make scathing remarks about hairdressers and yet a good cut is a real skill and an art. Top lawyers and politicians etc wouldn't feel half so confident if they had to cut their own hair!
One of my sons is not academic and yet he had practicality, common sense and intelligence. He had an apprenticeship and he is the one buying a house aged 25yrs- his siblings who went the university route can't. His girlfriend went to a RG university - many of his friends went to university- the two groups do mix quite happily!
MN makes everyone sound separate tribes and yet in RL I have friends who went to state schools and friends who went to private schools. I went to a state school, DH went private. I know people who have children in both sections. DH was private, his brother state- they did equally well.
I know many people who went private and their children go state because they can't afford the private.
It always gets into two camps on MN. I can only put it down to jealousy. I had a state education and don't regret it- my children had a state education and if I had the money I would stick to state unless they were being failed by it ( but they were not).
The assumption seems to be that private is better- as if bad private schools can't exist. People come on here with complaints about schools and then you realise they are complaining about bad practice in in a private school and I think 'and you are paying for this.....'!!
OriginalSteamingNit has it right- 'Silly thing to say- silly man'.

Happygardening, i think your DH has identified a gap between learning and earning, he might have to plug that gap with incentives and accept that people don't just sail from one stage into the next. It would probably be worth his while.

I do feel this is starting to change a little as young people are taking their training more seriously. I am currently attending a vocational college for retraining and the standard of teaching and learning is very high. It is certainly higher than my arts degree and more challenging.

But somehow the elitist intellectuals still seem to see tradespeople as people who work "for" them rather than on an equal level. All this is rooted in our class system and I believe this amorality in schools is simply a kind of rebellion against that, a symptom of it.

Back to the amorality though, I do think that schools and teachers might be fine, but children are very good at pretending, deceiving that they are nice or good when they are not. Schools turn a blind eye to what really goes on, there is a lot of selfishness, they don't encourage considerate behaviour, only competition. They haven't got time. It's sink or swim, no lifeguards.

"X" the other as "Y" is exactly an example of an "arcane public school lexicon". I could give you some fantastic examples if you really want both official and unofficial but I very much doubt your interested and also don't wish to fan your existing prejudices
No, x and y weekends isnt, necessarily, but the conversation became about that, didn't it? Yes, I do find 'dons' and 'toytime' etc pretentious in the extreme, and you've talked about those examples before

The schools my kids are at encourage considerate behaviour. They don't always get it. But they certainly encourage and try to enforce it. Two are faith schools one is not. There seems to be little difference in terms of the amount of effort (a lot) they put into trying to encourage the kids to be nice. Competition is a dirty word in all the schools, although not in a sporting context when it's just fine.

Anyway, 'parents evening' today! Hope my 'year 8' hasn't got any 'codes' from the 'teachers'!
Nah, lacks the panache, dunnit?

Mart frankly your allowing your ridiculous prejudice to get the better of you and cloud your judgement. My DH's occupation oozes easy shorthand the excludes other people, my profession oozes easy short hand that excludes other people, my hair dresser talks in easy shorthand and even my DS who work in a local corner shop came home talking in easy shorthand the other day none of this is done to exclude the working working classes, middle classes or the upper classes it's simply to make life easier. My DS may been experiencing a top notch education which you feel is elitist but I hope more then anything else it teaches him common sense, to be open minded to all that's around him and to not view everything that you don't like through ridiculously prejudiced eyes.

I never mentioned dons or toy time. I was a mother looking forward to seeing her DS who she'd not seen for nearly 4 weeks, that excitement I think you'll find is also not confined to those of us who pay for education.

No, I meant you'd mentioned them at other times: cf. 'before' .

HG- there is a big difference between the sort of professional language that people who do the same sort of work share, or people who have specialised knowledge share- I am sure that you and I could talk about horses in a way that would leave most other posters on the thread utterly baffled- and the unspoken "rules of the club" type language that you only acquire if you belong to a particular elite group. My table manners example is a good one here- if you don't know, for example, how "posh" people eat asparagus then you are going to mark yourself out as "not one of us" in some circles. It is ridiculous, but it is how it is. And it's one of the ways that the privileged classes maintain their position. Listen to Tories talk about Edward Heath, or John Major- or even Margaret Thatcher (although she was a special case obviously) and you'll see what I mean.