The big Eton, Harrow, Radley, Winchester question...

[TinkerBellThree]

I have been reading a lot of threads on this site and found it hugely informative (and sometimes quite amusing). I hope you don't mind me picking your brain as I find that I am increasingly confusing myself.

Our DS is in year 5 and we have started to visit senior schools for him.
We have seen Radley, Harrow, Eton and Winchester, and been to a few co-ed schools as well, but have decided that single sex is probably more right for DS.

DS is quite academic (though I tend to believe he is not as much so as his school tells me he is), sporty and very competitive. He is very social and he loves to try out new things.

Our DS' Prep is adamant that he is made for Eton and Eton is made for him, and I must admit we loved the school when we visited, so we have put his name down there. However, it is exceedingly hard to get into and I am not counting my chickens (and I think the likelihood of a place is slimmer than slim) so I believe we need (several) back-up(s) - so here is where I am getting confused...

Radley (who I understand is a "normal" backup for Eton) is not encouraged by our DS' school (not sure why) and Harrow worries me a little with its reputation of not being very challenging academically (has this changed?).

Originally we ruled out Winchester as it was not "sporty" enough, but having been to visit, we have had to re-think as we found there were lots of opportunities for our DS to do sports. Our DS' Prep think it should be on our list - but is a boy so "suited" for Eton really suited for WinCol?

All the above schools are within easy reach of where we live, so we will have ample opportunity to see matches etc.

Where should we put DS' name down? For all the schools on our list + some (as he may not get into any of the above)? Or should we be more focused?

I know a lot of you have vast amounts of experience and possibly been through the same conundrum yourself, and I would really very much appreciate your input.

Thank you Hertsandessex I try my best. And sounds like you are referring to the Johnson Index, an independent body devoted to the old boys' one -eyed trouser snake statistics. Strangely enough from personal experience many years ago!!, I can confirm that H comes out on top.......

” Of course Harrow isn't near Eton academically . . . Harrow does not even beat my chidlren's day schools for exam results.”

Nor does Harrow even beat my DD’s free state school here in north London, Dogcatred. For that matter, Harrow does not even come anywhere near the nation’s first 250(?) schools! It’s only deluded wannabe kiasu parents submerged in their fantasy world who imagine Harrow is somewhere up there amongst the elite in the super league.

I asked for evidence, Quiosegagne, but I see none forthcoming. But don’t worry, take a deep breath and calm down dear, it's only a school!!! Very good advice for yourself!

” I am sure that whatever career P's DS is doing there are many non-Etonians doing just as if not more successfully and as well prepared by their education.”

Well, that may or may not be so, sendsummer. If you’d looked at the Sunday Times league table I linked to above, you’ll see there are 15 schools above Eton including a state school, Queen Elizabeth’s School, Barnet, (8) - a school that DS could have gone there too (saving myself a lot of money) but I rejected it and opted for Eton. It is highly debatable any of the said top 15 could offer a better academic plus all-round education that I was looking for my DS.

Btw, DS’s career is in medicine. He begins his final year at med school next month having sailed through the course in the last 5 years with flying colours! Thanks to Eton, of course. What career does WinColl prepare your DS for? I know everyone at Harrow aspires to go to Oxford to read Classics . . . Now, that will no doubt contribute immensely to the future benefit of mankind.

"Harrow last year 67% A*/A" - as I quoted is that bad, better the days when you went to Eton if you were bright and Harrow if you were not bright; but still Eton is for brighter boys.

However it depends on the child. I was the best in my very small private school. That can feel isolating as you're different from everyone else but perhaps that made me do even better as the best of not a very academic school.

" Btw, DS’s career is in medicine. He begins his final year at med school next month having sailed through the course in the last 5 years with flying colours! "

Good for him

So do many others.

It can only mean good for the nation - assuming the govt doesn't interfere with the profession by coming out with their big idea new contract and trying to impose it on the (junior) doctors.

Not sure what your point is Peteneras . Yes Eton is a school that offers a very good all round education (not surprising with all the money at its disposal). Your DS I am sure enjoyed his school, the activities on offer, made friends and did reasonably well there. However your DS in reaching his final year as a medical student is the same as all the others who did not attend Eton (or any of the schools of the OP) but are also passing through medical school with ease. BTW many would consider the bubble of Eton etc a relative disadvantage as a preparation for a career in medicine.

That was a genuine question, sendsummer, just wondering what discipline is/was WinColl preparing your DS for at university?

You are stating the blatantly obvious; with 93% of kids coming from state schools, i.e. non-Eton, and of the remaining 7% who are privately educated, only 0.006% are Etonians thus making 99.994% of the nation’s kids non-Etonian.

Is it therefore, surprising to see “there are many non-Etonians doing just as [well] if not more successfully and as well prepared by their education.”?

On the contrary, what that is “surprising” is to see the 0.006% of Etonians going on to occupy the lion’s share in anything you care to name!

” BTW many would consider the bubble of Eton etc a relative disadvantage as a preparation for a career in medicine.”

Did you just make that up on the go? You are beginning to look silly for writing such unfounded nonsense without any supporting evidence.

Just briefly, the last public schoolboy who won the Nobel Prize for Medicine was an OE; the last public schoolboy who won an Oscar was an OE; the last public schoolboy who resided at No.10 Downing Street was an OE etc.

Just to quickly name 3 contrasting professions . . .

I don't think John Guordon is a good example, he pursued science despite his Etonian education rather than because of it. That was many years ago though, I am sure things would be different now.

many would consider the bubble of Eton etc a relative disadvantage as a preparation for a career in medicine.. E, like all full boarding public schools, is a privileged social bubble; certainly not the best preparation for understanding the realities of the lives of most patients.

another BTW, this time re ''your question'' - you may want to spend your time trying to guess which schools my DCs are at but I don't have to indulge your attempts with an answer as it would be encouraging MN stalking behaviour from you.

It's a difficult question for some people actually whether Eton is a disadvantage. i don't think it is but I had a lunch ionce with a friend who was having to decide on exactly that issue. In the end he decided the advantage made up for the disadvantage but it's not a simple issue for some parents.

John Gurdon, an OE won the Nobel Prize for Medicine in 2012. Not all that long ago, is it? Whether you think he achieved this honour in spite of or because of, his Eton education is immaterial. Name me the last Old Wykehamist who’d won a Nobel Prize for anything - if ever there was one.

” E, like all full boarding public schools, is a privileged social bubble; certainly not the best preparation for understanding the realities of the lives of most patients.”

If you believe that is true, it applies more to your DS’s school, WinColl, than to Eton which has a large number of underprivileged boys from the nation’s worst inner city estates, etc. - a quarter of the whole school receives financial assistance of one kind or another averaging more than 60% of the fees!

In any case, an OE doctor or any British doctor for that matter, doesn’t have to know or to “understand the realities of the lives of most [all] patients”. Why should they?

An OE doctor or any British doctor in the NHS would approach and treat a patient (say) with a liver disease, exactly the same way no matter the patient may be a billionaire industrialist or a down-and-out homeless drunkard.

Oh, and please get rid of your illusion that you are so important that I or anyone else may be stalking you. One summer may end and another one begins the next year but I’m not so dumb not to realise all summers are the same.

. John Gurdon's education at Eton (where he was thought 'too stupid to study science') was a long time ago not his Nobel prize.

Interesting that you think education is immaterial. Surely a school is about education.
I suppose that you are making the point that the success of a school depends on its selection of pupils rather than its added value. I would n't have thought that was the only reason for the success of alumni from a school like Eton.

Perhaps your DS could explain to you what most members of the general public are aware of (including me) the importance of treating the person not the disease and the role of home circumstances and socioeconomics for delivering that.

Do you think that any-one who disagrees with you must have an association with Winchester? .

Have you looked at Wellington college? Fabulous sport, good academic results and all round good fun place.

Quite a few Etonians go to Oxford to read Classics I understand.

Yes indeed, MrsBernard, Etonians go everywhere to do everything including defrauding insurance companies, trying to overthrow foreign govts and finding themselves languishing in African jails, allegedly bumping off wives and disappearing without trace for decades, etc. Now, that’s diversity for you!

And most certainly, quite a few Etonians go to Oxford to read Classics. In fact, my favourite OE is a classicist from Oxford who later found himself Mayor of London and thence the Foreign Secretary. I reckon that’s all due to his affable personality though, rather than his Classics degree from Oxford.

And then there’s a small group of Etonians going to Oxford to read Theology. It’s not as if these guys are hoping to become pastors/priests/preachers anytime soon after graduation.

Which reminds me of one of DS’s good friends from prep school days who never achieved anything sensational or excelled in anything, when on the last day at Eton, I casually asked him which university was he heading to and the discipline he was following. He suddenly blushed with severe embarrassment and feeling very uncomfortable, didn’t want to look me in the eye and mumbled softly, “Oxford”.

And what are you reading at Oxford, I asked with genuine excitement for him. Very softly, he replied, “Theology”. Now, I really love this particular boy like my own son - he was a pint-sized little lad who stood waiting at the entrance of the prep school for my DS on his first day starting at the prep school some 8 years earlier and offered to carry DS’s heavy luggage which must be twice as heavy as his own weight.

Seeing the discomfort he was in whilst talking to me, I had to literally hold this boy with both hands on his shoulder and said to him, “Boy! You should be massively proud of yourself. You’ve done fantastically well - look, you’re going to O-X-F-O-R-D! Wow! I’m sure your parents are very proud of you. Congratulations! And send my regards to your parents.

Classics does seem to be coming back into fashion. DS went to a two week Greek summer school this hols, and there were about 200 students there!

The advice in my day was to do something 'relevant', resulting in me spending three years studying economics and accountancy (which I hated) instead of history. I ended up working for a major museum. My brother did history, and became an accountant!

One of mine has done that at university and is now a pretty impressive London lawyer. It's a good degree if you are interested in that topic.

I didn’t say education is immaterial, sendsummer; why do you think I’m here in an educational forum if I thought education was not important? What I said was whether John Gurdon’s Nobel Prize win was because of his Eton education (definitely) or in spite of it as you suggested, is immaterial. For sure, Eton did tell him straight in the face that his science was no good. They, in Eton don’t mess about y’know; no pussyfooting and beating round the bush, etc. - they call a spade, a spade! Sorry if your feelings are hurt like John Gurdon might well have been. But that only made him more determined to try harder the next time. The rest is history.

Now, I’ve just returned from the hospital after accompanying an elderly relative to A&E after a nasty fall from a ladder. At no time did the doctors or nurses ask said relative about her home circumstances and socioeconomics. All they wanted to know was whether she could move her (badly) injured arm; whether they should perform an emergency operation; whether operating theatre could create a slot for her by noon the next day, etc. By and large, these are the sort of questions doctors would ask 95% of the time when treating a patient.

For sure, there is an aspect of medicine when/where doctors do nothing else except asking the patient about everything including their home circumstances and socioeconomics. It is called, ‘psychiatry’. We are not interested in that line of medicine. Best left to the headshrinkers.

Winchester is very much part of the discussion on this thread. I only mention it seeing that you are a parent of a Wykehamist yourself. Oh, don’t worry about disagreeing with me - lots of people disagree with me including family and friends.

Honestly Peteneras the quality of that response from you is not worth the time it took you to think of it. You continue to demonstrate tortuous reasoning and misconceptions which are honestly not worth my energies debating with. Best of luck

Seems to me, sendsummer, that response of mine written in plain simple English
had found you wanting. Don’t know why you bother to write anything here really; time to go back to school perhaps? Goodbye!

Love eavesdroping on this one. it's like a bad tempered after dinner conversation in Downtown Abbey!

But which one is Maggie Smith?

Bernard, until I've been fortified with a few sherries I'm too chicken to commit my casting to this page! I 'll be sent downstairs to think again. Mortifying.

please couldI I be Maggie Smith.