The big Eton, Harrow, Radley, Winchester question...

[TinkerBellThree]

I have been reading a lot of threads on this site and found it hugely informative (and sometimes quite amusing). I hope you don't mind me picking your brain as I find that I am increasingly confusing myself.

Our DS is in year 5 and we have started to visit senior schools for him.
We have seen Radley, Harrow, Eton and Winchester, and been to a few co-ed schools as well, but have decided that single sex is probably more right for DS.

DS is quite academic (though I tend to believe he is not as much so as his school tells me he is), sporty and very competitive. He is very social and he loves to try out new things.

Our DS' Prep is adamant that he is made for Eton and Eton is made for him, and I must admit we loved the school when we visited, so we have put his name down there. However, it is exceedingly hard to get into and I am not counting my chickens (and I think the likelihood of a place is slimmer than slim) so I believe we need (several) back-up(s) - so here is where I am getting confused...

Radley (who I understand is a "normal" backup for Eton) is not encouraged by our DS' school (not sure why) and Harrow worries me a little with its reputation of not being very challenging academically (has this changed?).

Originally we ruled out Winchester as it was not "sporty" enough, but having been to visit, we have had to re-think as we found there were lots of opportunities for our DS to do sports. Our DS' Prep think it should be on our list - but is a boy so "suited" for Eton really suited for WinCol?

All the above schools are within easy reach of where we live, so we will have ample opportunity to see matches etc.

Where should we put DS' name down? For all the schools on our list + some (as he may not get into any of the above)? Or should we be more focused?

I know a lot of you have vast amounts of experience and possibly been through the same conundrum yourself, and I would really very much appreciate your input.

Reading this with interest. I spent one term, aged 17, at an English (quite mediocre, co-ed) boarding school. (I'm from Germany.) Didn't understand the appeal at all. The overriding memory was that all the foreign students who were there just for a term or up to a year (as a "life enriching experience" of sorts) easily outperformed the resident pupils (6th form) in all core subjects.

Anyway, I was wondering if wealthy people who have girls go to similar lengths in deciding which school is best for their daughters? On MN at least it always seems to be about boys and Eton/Harrow.

This is a genuine question by the way. Do people have no problem with the fact that the best schools in the country don't accept girls?

I do not have any DD's but there are a few big name girls boarding schools although due to the nature of women's education in the UK its inevitable that they lack the history or famous alumni of the top school boys schools I think it would be safe to assume that most parents of girls or boys generally think carefully about their choice, not only is it a considerable expense but contrary to the views of on here most parents sending their DC's to a full boarding schools love them very much and do actually want their children to be happy and thrive.

"Best" is also a very subjective term. I personally wouldn't send my DS to three out of four being discussed on this thread and many would feel the same about DS's school. Sensible parents decisions aren't swayed by what is considered the "best" school. It's should be all about what works for you and your DC.

happy there are not many MN threads about the girls schools though are there. It's the very uneven playing field that I'm surprised very few people raise an eyebrow about. The opposite of equal opportunities really. You only have to look at the Conservative cabinet. It's all very nice with Eton et al giving out scholarships - it's only ever going to be boys attending. The "old boys network", which presumably parents of boys are quite keen on, must leave parents of girls really disheartened?

The fact that it is universally accepted that the best and most prestigious schools are reserved for boys leaves me confused, as well as a quite angry.

And I am sure that irrespective of the sex of their children, parents takes these decisions with the best interest of their children at heart. I come from a country where fee paying schools, and especially boarding schools, only play a tiny role in education. So the decision to send children away for school seems very alien to me. However in the British system it's clearly much more widely accepted, and who am I to judge this.

IMO the "old boys network" or even the "old girl network" is not particularly significant. It's the "parental network" thats providing opportunities for their DC's. Friends with good connection in a wide variety in of areas banking, journalism, law etc are often finding great opportunities for their children both boys and girls and their friends DCs.
Secondly you're right that the any bursaries given out by Eton Win Coll and other boy schools only go to boys, but for us what made Win Coll the right place was that they know how to educate boys and understand them. IME and many others with boys the state school is not good at it especially in the early years. Some big name girls schools also provide bursaries and scholarships as do some coed schools

AwakeCantSleep I agree that the best most diverse or unique broad education full boarding package (and for similar fees) seems to be provided by the top three boys' only schools. IMO not even some of the very good co-ed schools come close. You would have thought that would have changed by now but it does n't seem to have. It can't all be about endowments.

Interesting comment sendsummer I don't that much about COED full boarding schools and n cut to nothing' about girls schools but the couple of coed full boarding schools I do know a little about they seem to me be trying very hard to provide a detailed diverse if not "unique" education. I wonder about their "uniqueness" I guess if you combine hundreds of years of history and tradition with being a famous name, wealth, oversubscription, top exam results/university destinations you can be as unique as you like!

To some extent I'm with whataboutthebob. Over 50% of those we have known who started boarding at 10+, 11+ or 13+ have not lasted the course. And a minority have had major problems such as anorexia. (Yes we know THAT Eton boy who was in the papers earlier in the year.)

To some extent this may be a London problem. London is such a brilliant City in which to be an affluent teenager. Neither of mine were into parties but there was so much else to do. Whatever is offered by a boarding school is likely to pale in comparison. And some London day schools are fab, intellectually stimulating and with access to what London has to offer on top.

Yes I accept that some kids want to board, and some kids love boarding. But there is a risk. Indeed the girl with anorexia was boarding for some very good reasons. (But has since thrived at a good London day school) However I think most kids do better with their parents.

I boarded at a really dippy girls convent school. My parents, who thought they were buying a step up the class ladder, were outraged when the Headmistress, when asked what the best age was to start boarding, said "as late as possible, and if possible never".

I think she was right.

So be careful that this is what your DC wants to do. Then consider 13+ or weekly boarding. And move quickly if they are unhappy.

Yes some will thrive, but really not all.

London has some great day schools and lots to do outside school. Plus it is nice as a parent to have your children at home. You don't know when they might hit problems, but when they do its important to be there.

"Over 50% of those who started boarding ..... Have not lasted the course"
Bloody hello that's high are you sure?. Allwe've known over the 7 years DS was at boarding prep who went onto boarding schools all bar two are either still boarding or boarded till the end of yr 13. None have lefts DS boarding house in his year nor have any friends in other houses the school is full so they clearly aren't loosing 50%. Many at Win Coll come from London.
My colleagues work with anorexia, it's not my area of expertise but I do know that all they are involved in are at day schools in both sectors (I'm not denying that there are anorexics in boarding schools but the condition is very complicated it not just about where you go to school).
When you child hits a problem you can still be there if they board, your child also has the choice of turning to others, teenagers don't always want to turn to their parents and as they are entitled to their confidentiality they like to turn to school staff with problems they don't wish to discuss with their parents, also increasingly we are finding that rather sadly quite a few children have dysfunctional relationships with their parents (some are at boarding schools some are at day schools).

Yes. It is high. One of the joys of Facebook. DD was aware of more than one who, having started boarding aged 13 was trying for London sixth forms. She knows a few others who are at tutorial colleges. Plus others who bailed out earlier. Some have really struggled: including anerexia, but also stints at American wilderness camps, rumours of drink/drugs, or the rather infamous court appearance.

For the most part DDs peers who headed to London day schools have been fine. It's all anecdotal, but I would hesitate before sending a child boarding unless there were good reasons, and they wanted to go. I would also look at options like weekly boarding which provides a reasonable compromise for two career parents.

If my child had a problem, and all teenagers have ups and downs, I would want to be there.

FWIW I know of two Winchester boys who did not stay the course. Again both did fine at day school.

I don't really understand what this depth is that boarding school provides.

Lots of children at day schools get top a level results and excellent uni places. What is it exactly that boarders are getting? Except being able to pack a case efficiently.

I thought there was evidence that boys do better academically at coed schools anyway.

hewl I think in the independent sector boys do as well at SS as they do in coed.
Boarding can offer a curriculum of both breadth and depth that doesn't end at 3 30 or 6 pm at best, DS's school has three completely free afternoons a week so boys can either peruse a sport or other interest then on the other three afternoons there are a couple of free hours to do the same there are approximately 60 + societies, offering everything from rowing through to maths soc, the Slavonic society and the mediaeval manuscript society. His school has approximately 30 concerts a term, internal orchestras and external one, 6-8 plays a term and weekly often biweekly evening lectures from outside speakers who are eminent in their field.
For us and many others education is not just exam results or uni destinations.

Needmoresleep 50% does seem extraordinarily high. Sixth form exits from boarding schools especially certain girls' boarding schools do not surprise me. Lots of teenagers want a different environment including co-ed for their last two years or want / need a different academic standard.
I do not dismiss more serious problems but the underlying causes would normally mean that boarding was not right for that DC.
London life and education does breed its own stresses and can itself be rather a bubble for affluent teenagers which they find difficult to break- out of. That may be accentuated now by more of them staying in London for university and not really experiencing the rest of the UK. Not that boarding schools are the remedy for that particular problem.

I do know some boys who have left Winchester for academic reasons and problems with self-organisation and motivation. One went to another boarding school.
There are of course a number of DCs who do not have the enthusiasm for full-on activities of boarding life but would rather be left alone with a book or computer or partying. Sometimes parents want to shoehorn their DCs into what is not a good fit.

God that sounds absolutely knackering happygardening and I have to say completely unnecessary. My dds are day girls and manage to cram in tons of sport, music and drama. Sport particularly is better when provided by good local clubs than even the best private schools.

I do think there's a fetish about boys boarding schools that seems absolutely emporers new clothes. I've never seen any evidence for boys from Eton Harrow and Winchester being in any way more impressive or emotionally rounded than boys who went to minor public schools (dh, lovely) or state schools. Thank goodness I don't have boys so will never have to buy into it!

I have to admit hewl on the basis that as you say you don't have boys so will never have to buy into it, I'm more than a little confused as to your interest in this particular discussion. It seems to me the fetish you allude to may more correctly be one affecting those with no involvement in the subject matter...
As to the point made by happygardening re activities available to boarders, I don't disagree with you re the sporting aspect to a certain level, my DS is a county sportsman in 2 sports so does go for specific coaching however for all the other exhausting activities, I guess I must be lucky that he is fit and likes to be entertained trying things out rather than sitting in front of a TV playing video games..each to their own!

I do think there's a fetish about boys boarding schools that seems absolutely emporers new clothes. I've never seen any evidence for boys from Eton Harrow and Winchester being in any way more impressive or emotionally rounded than boys who went to minor public schools
hewl as I said in previous posts the 'fetish' (including from the international market) is usually entirely pragmatic and for economic reasons. The other boarding public schools cost the same but will (for whatever reason) be more patchy in the quality of teachers they can recruit and probably in their provision of other activities and societies. They will usually also be less free to do what is thought best for the education rather than attracting and keeping wealthy parents and have less funds for widening access. They will not have the track record of 'uniqueness' in curriculum like W that may suit a particular DC.
Obviously to get the most out of what can be offered and to enjoy it rather than be stressed a DC needs to be pretty energetic, seeking new experiences (not just in their major interests), social as well as bright enough to cope with combining high level academics and the rest. Obviously since only a tiny percentage go to these OP schools they do not have the monopoly on bright, energetic, social, talented DCs but they do offer a rather good education package for them.

hewl the boys obviously don't have to do all these activities, sport for a start is largely optional and some will do nothing. But you were stating that you didn't understand what this "depth is that boarding schools provide". I don't believe it's entirely unnecessary (obviously) it means that there is something for everyone and that the boys can develop interest that they didn't know they had.
For me education is not just exams and university destination, it's learning about things that don't come up in exam papers, things you probably won't use at work, but get personal enjoyment and satisfaction from knowing about, this might be a play, book, piece of music or an art work, or understanding a political point of view better. Where we live I do not have to even pay for top exam results and university destinations, but it's that the schools don't offer the oppritunites that boarding can. At DS2 school they pride themselves on the fact that they provide a intellectual education that it's not just about exams and university destinations and he would say (with just under four weeks to go before he leaves) that it's this depth that has made it such an excellent experience for him.
hewl as I've repeatedly said before on here we don't all want the same thing from education, it's got nothing to do with the "emperors new clothes", as I've already said I wouldn't choose the other three mentioned in this thread in fact I wouldn't send the dog to them but that is just my personal opinion I have no doubt that for the right boy/family they are excellent schools. I also wouldn't pay for a day school either because for me it would not provide the sort of education I believe that my DS would benefit from. You obviously are looking for something else that you believe you DD will benefit from. I've got no problem with that and wouldn't dream of criticising your choice because I'm assuming that your DD is happy and thriving and that you are generally pleased with the school. It mystifies me why others have seem to have a problem with my choice or who despite knowing nothing about the school, my DS or us as a family believe that I can't see how wrong our choice is. The reality is that after nearly five years at Win Coll it's the complete opposite, he's had exactly the breadth and depth of education that Win Coll claim to offer and growing into the young man I hoped he would when he went 5 years ago oh and as you say he packs a mean suitcase!

Dh came out of boarding school unscathed and he enjoyed it. I asked him why and he said it was a chance to live with people who weren't your family and that he spent lots of time just pissing about with his mates. Probably why his school was a fairly minor one

I think hewl you would find that even "fairly minor" boarding schools have changed a lot. Parents expectations are probably significantly higher, fees are astronomical so even minor schools offer a wide range of activities.
I do think living along side 60 other teaches children a very useful life skill, most boarders we know are very adaptable and tolerant of difference, this is because when you live work eat sleep play alongside others who you may not necessarily like if your going to get the most out of it then you have to learn to quickly read situations and adapt, and you need to be tolerant of difference.

needmore my DS said only a couple left at the end of yr 11, so no mass exit to 6th form colleges etc.
"I would also look at options like weekly boarding"
Weekly boarding is a different animal to full boarding I personally don't like it, but that's just my opinion. Friends moved there DS from his weekly boarding school to a 6th form to a independent 6th form college (day) because they couldn't really see what they were paying a substantial amount for. The vast majority of the school "weekly" boarded this meant they were at school from Monday morning till Friday evening they just felt the atmosphere was completely different from their experience of a full boarding school.
As I said above as parents we have to work out what we and our DC want from their time in school and try and find somewhere that matches your requirements I genuinely don't think there is only one way to educate a child that's why there are so many different types of school from Steiner through to a very traditional full boarding school. I do think that in the majority of cases if we as parents happy and believe in our choice and also believe that our children are getting the education we want them to have then are children will also be happy and believe in it. It's when you start doubting that everything starts to go wrong.

To the PP ( was it Needmoresleep ?) who asked why people mostly ask about boys' schools, and implied that perhaps parents aren't so worried about their girls, I'd suggest the reason is that most of the posters on this site are women who find choosing a girls' school more black and white.

Maybe they want to send their DD to their own alma mater (me), so it's not an issue beyond going to an open day and seeing if you still love it, or maybe it's because the education of girls, and what teenage girls want, or need, is something we as mothers already know all about.

I went to full boarding and absolutely loved it and it offered a fantastic experience. IME, the worst eating disorders/drug problems I've seen are children in day schools who run wild with their friends at weekends. At my school it didn't go beyond a Silk Cut or five in the bushes.

ouch

Friends moved there DS from his weekly boarding school to a 6th form to a independent 6th form college (day) because they couldn't really see what they were paying a substantial amount for. The vast majority of the school "weekly" boarded this meant they were at school from Monday morning till Friday evening they just felt the atmosphere was completely different from their experience of a full boarding school.

I'm a mere 'Grammar school girl' with a daughter who went to a
school which was right for her but which I'm sure you would consider inferior to the hallowed halls where your child now resides.

Horses for courses..........day/weekly boarding/full boarding/home schooling. There is no right nor wrong IMO.....suspects some will disagree

'there' I was taught 'their' for this sentence?? I was also taught full stop, capital letter etc. etc.