The big Eton, Harrow, Radley, Winchester question...

[TinkerBellThree]

I have been reading a lot of threads on this site and found it hugely informative (and sometimes quite amusing). I hope you don't mind me picking your brain as I find that I am increasingly confusing myself.

Our DS is in year 5 and we have started to visit senior schools for him.
We have seen Radley, Harrow, Eton and Winchester, and been to a few co-ed schools as well, but have decided that single sex is probably more right for DS.

DS is quite academic (though I tend to believe he is not as much so as his school tells me he is), sporty and very competitive. He is very social and he loves to try out new things.

Our DS' Prep is adamant that he is made for Eton and Eton is made for him, and I must admit we loved the school when we visited, so we have put his name down there. However, it is exceedingly hard to get into and I am not counting my chickens (and I think the likelihood of a place is slimmer than slim) so I believe we need (several) back-up(s) - so here is where I am getting confused...

Radley (who I understand is a "normal" backup for Eton) is not encouraged by our DS' school (not sure why) and Harrow worries me a little with its reputation of not being very challenging academically (has this changed?).

Originally we ruled out Winchester as it was not "sporty" enough, but having been to visit, we have had to re-think as we found there were lots of opportunities for our DS to do sports. Our DS' Prep think it should be on our list - but is a boy so "suited" for Eton really suited for WinCol?

All the above schools are within easy reach of where we live, so we will have ample opportunity to see matches etc.

Where should we put DS' name down? For all the schools on our list + some (as he may not get into any of the above)? Or should we be more focused?

I know a lot of you have vast amounts of experience and possibly been through the same conundrum yourself, and I would really very much appreciate your input.

He is completely out of touch with the Man on the street, for a variety of reasons, I doubt having attending a school like Eton 30+ years ago gave you much insight into the lives worries and opinions of the working proletariat.

”I'm staggered that peteneras is slinging around accusations of criminal libel with so little foundation and without bothering to check what on earth s/he is talking about. If that's a demonstration of what Eton produces, no thanks.”

Seems to me, JudyCoolibar, that you’d do yourself a power of good by taking your own advice, i.e. do bother to check what on earth you’re talking about so as to have just a little bit of foundation!

Perhaps, read more widely like, e.g. this interview that I read some four years ago,
‘The world according to two old friends’ between the former German Chancellor, Helmut Schmidt, no less, and the other, a brilliant man with exceptional vision, someone I’ve admired since my childhood days, Lee Kuan Yew.

Quote:
LKY: ”I think Europeans are mentally far developed, as a consequence of two world wars. They were witnesses of pointless feuds and hostilities, hope and ambitious plans, that have led to nothing but tragedies. Napoleon tried to unify Europe, later Hitler did as well.”

Didn’t that OE, Bojo, said something similar during the recent Referendum campaign re Hitler?

German newspaper Die Zeit: ”Especially against this backdrop: Is the European Union that we have today not a great achievement and an inspiration for other regions in the world, despite all its flaws?”

LKY: ”No, I do not view the European Union as an inspiration for the world. I view it as an enterprise that was conceived wrongly because it was expanded too fast and it will probably fail.”

It will probably fail?

Well, Nigel Farage will tell you, it’s dying!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
”If that's a demonstration of what Eton produces, no thanks.”

Believe me, Eton produces more types than you can ever imagine, be it Oscar winner, Nobel Laureate, Archbishop, Prime Ministers, Multiple Olympic Gold Medallist . . . well to be honest, the list is too long to mention here. Absolutely nowhere near this list that the other 3 schools on this thread can come near to.

Thanks Indrid for reminding me about the Eton Referendum poll. Got to say it was a poll not amongst the boys only, but also amongst the masters, general staff and the entire Eton community. The result surprised me too.

As for me . . . my mind was made up a long time ago.

It wasn't the Eton referendum poll result that surprised but.... but rather the TEN houses one!

"Absolutely nowhere near this list that the other 3 schools on this thread can come near to."

And I do mean the other 3 schools put together . . . of course!

"Absoltely nowhere near this list that the other three schools on this thread can come near too"
I guess we all choose a school for different reasons, some may be shallow enough base their choice on the success of its alumni, but I and most other parents choose a school that we feel is the best fit for our DC's. Where the ethos and approach to education is in step with our own.

Oh do give it a rest peteneras. You go on and on about the same old thing when those of us with boys currently at or due to attend no better. You are harping back to the days 10+ years ago when E was superior to some of the schools mentioned, though not all.. Now things are very different but you are stuck in history. Do get over it, sounds to me like an inferiority complex, and trying to live your life through your DS. Mr Henderson is a breath of fresh air at E and will change that school considerably - for the better. I can see more of a Bradfield feel to the school which as you very well know will continue going forwards. I guess you are just upset to see Eton change, don't worry it will be better for the school and as the HM has said less focus on A grades more on well rounded boys. Get over it!

”The blame has to be laid squarely at the feet of an old Etonian who did not need to call a referendum..”

Wrong!

Not exactly my favourite OE, Peacefully8484, but the OE you blame for creating the present havoc has truckloads of principles which cannot be said about the immediate past few PM’s. I saw the better side of DC in the last few days which now makes me change my mind about him. Don’t forget, that man won a General Election against all odds just over a year ago and he could have easily kept his job for the next 4 years like many of the hypocrite Labour PM’s.

But just to remind you of the BBC Referendum time line:

2007: The European Commission proposes a replacement treaty, which comes to be known as the Lisbon Treaty. The Labour government says it is a different document, amending not overwriting existing treaties, and a referendum is not needed. Conservative leader David Cameron gives a "cast-iron guarantee" to hold a referendum on any treaty emerging from the Lisbon process if he becomes PM

22 January 2013: In a long awaited speech Prime Minister David Cameron says that if the Conservatives win the next election they would seek to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU and then give the British people the "simple choice" in 2017 between staying in the EU under those terms or leaving the EU.

8 May 2015: The Conservatives win a majority in the House of Commons in the general election and immediately pledge to make good on their election manifesto promise to hold a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU by the end of 2017

”That act is what has caused this havoc.”

Wrong again!

Rather than blaming DC for causing “this havoc”, perhaps you should blame yourself if you had voted Conservatives last general election for putting him at No.10.

The Referendum last Thursday was in his Manifesto. The man was merely acting on his principles. After having lost the vote and on his first speech to the nation, he tendered his resignation. This is ole’ Etonian value for you! I know of very many “leaders” throughout the world who would have to be dragged out kicking and screaming if they found themselves in the same position.

i.e. assuming they could be dragged out . . .

I may not agree with much peteneras has to say re H vs E, but he is spot on re DC!

It's extraordinary that this thread completely innocent and old thread has been hijacked by the disasterous results of the EU referendum
DC is Im afraid only himself to blame, he promised a vote in 2017 when campaigning in 2015 and now he has to live with the consequences.
Boris has been a Eurosceptic for many years and is also a very shrewd operator and is clearly hoping that he has timed it perfectly (I happen to know that this has been being planned for many years) and that he day is about to come. Apart from the fact that both are completely it of touch with the ordinary man on the street none of this has any relevance to which school either attended.

Just to add (in case any one wondered) I didn't vote Conservative.

And I dis not vote for him either. I would never have supported manifesto which included a referendum on Europe in order to appease the right of the party. I blame DC for a seriously misjudged tactical decisions and I blame yen leave campaign for the lies they told. There is no justification for any of it

Peteneras, extraordinarily you don't seem to have gone even so far as checking your own post when you tried to refute mine. Just to remind you, what you said, in answer to one saying that two OEs have messed up the UK between them, was:

Either you are supremely ignorant, sendsummer, or your knowledge of British history is absolutely zilch in order for you to make this kind of comment which is not too far short of criminal slander/libel. I reckon you owe the two OE’s and the great School at Windsor all of whom you’ve defamed, an apology, after you’ve educated yourself with this short article.

Now, if you had been properly taught to argue, you would have realised that the issue here is not what British history says, but what the law says. And, quite simply, the crime of defamatory libel no longer exists.

If you want to claim that either Johnson, Cameron or Eton have been defamed in civil law terms, again it doesn't work. The statement of a political opinion with which you disagree cannot found a claim for defamation.

”. . . I don't think you will find that Harrow is too far behind Eton academically these days with the full effect of the new head there now beginning to come through.”

Really?

So that’s why you reactivated this thread after almost half a year just to tell us that, Quiosegagne?

Because your son is going there and the school has a new head and so Harrow is suddenly not too far behind Eton academically. Talking about inferiority complex and trying to live your life through your DS . . .

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Jim Hawkins has been there for almost 5 years and Harrow is still the joke and the wannabe of the academic world. If anything, Barnaby Lenon was a much more superior Head.

”You are harping back to the days 10+ years ago when E was superior to some of the schools mentioned, though not all.”

People have been deluding themselves taking great pain telling all and sundry how very “academic” their DC’s school is. And there would be gullible people who’d swallow it hook, line and sinker. Well, they can be as academic as they like in their dreams but it’s the hard facts and figures (scroll down to pg 6) that float my boat!

So yes, E is still the most superior of all the schools mentioned and a lofty 25 places above the so-called and much hyped ”academic” school in Hants in this latest very respectable table - not 10 years+ ago. You’d need a magnifying glass to find where that ”not too far behind Eton academically” school is!

For your info, my DS left Eton 5 years ago, not 10, and I’m still involved in a certain aspect of Eton school life since 2007 on an annual basis whereby I interact with masters, parents, etc. So yes, I’m fully up to speed as far as E is concerned.

” And, quite simply, the crime of defamatory libel no longer exists.”

Since when, JudyCoolibar?

Like I said before, it’s wise to do some research before coming out with a statement like the above. Given that the crime of defamatory libel hasn’t been used for a mightily long time, it does not necessarily mean it “no longer exists”.

From a Law source:
If a class of people has been libelled then this a criminal offence not a tort. However it is only a crime if the prosecution can prove that the object of the publication of the defamatory statements was to excite the hatred of the public against the particular class in question.

Which is why I said to the poster who claimed that “two OEs have messed up the UK between them” was not too far short of criminal slander/libel.

Fact:

1. The statement was clearly designed to “excite the hatred of the public against the particular class in question”.
2. Europe have always been a contentious issue for the UK since time immemorial.
3. The two OE’s nor their school, have nothing to do with the “mess” in the UK, if there is one - they are merely trying to do their best for the UK albeit in different directions.

Even if a criminal case cannot be advanced, a civil case served on the poster by the individual(s) and/or class concerned would be worrisome enough.

"So yes Eton is still the most superior of all the schools mention and a lofty 25 places above the so called and much hyped "academic" school in Hants.
In my experience of looking at top universities sadly the A level has been so down graded that an A or even an A has become the essential grade to get! As everyone knows it's been the case for a long time for those wishing to do medicine veterinary science, Oxbridge etc, but I'm surprised by how many other universities are now asking for at least 1 A and then A's even from those educated in the state sector who many feel lack the advantages of those being educated in the independent sector. So not in my "dreams" but here are the cold hard facts taken from the two schools websites. Winchester beats Eton hands down, 47% achieving A or A and in the significantly harder Pre U in comparison with Eton just over 35%. When it comes to A grades the comparison is more complicated to make as the M1 is often seen by unversitues as an A grade if this is the case again Winchester did better than Eton by a few %. Interesting Eton also now offer the significantly more academic and less prescribed Pre U for some subjects, when you compare these grades against Winchester results again for the A or A** grades Winchester does do significantly better.
But ultimately this is all completely irrelevant, as I've repeatedly said on here it's a about finding a school that fits you and your child, this could be an inner city comprehensive, a state boarding school, a independent school no one has heard of or a big name boarding school. The four schools mentioned in this thread have quite different ethos's and I believe that this is what any perspective parents should be looking at, let's face it a bright motivated boy will do well at all four. I is know enough about Radley to know that it would never be the right place for my DS, Harrow was never on my radar because its location for us might as well be Mongolia and many went there from DS's prep and I felt some (not all) were looking for something that I personally don't like, those with DS's there as a general pricinole seem very happy with it. As most people on here know I didn't feel Eton was not a good fit for my DS or us again nearly all we know there seem delighted with their choice, though I over the last five years I've heard more rumblings of discontent than in the previous five years but this might be parent related. My DS has two days left at Winchester, no where have I said it's perfect for all very bright boys, I believe I genuinely give a warts and all portrayal of it and like Eton I meet parents who aren't happy with it but for my DS it was, as I felt all those years ago when I first started trying to work out what it's all about, an excellent fit. I'm know intellectually it's provided him with the level of interest and stimulation I felt he'd enjoy and needed and fingers croseed this will also be reflected in his exam grades. He has been generally happy there, happy children thrive, happy children are more likely to do well in their exams, miserable stressed children rarely excell in their exams. Therefore for us and many others it ticked all our boxes and is. the top school and it was absolutely the right choice.
Most of us are grown up enough to accept that one mans meat is another mans poison.

Peteneras No - I reactivated the thread to tell YOU that. Everyone else already knows it! Sounds to me like you are just a little angry that your DS' old school of 5 years ago is going through a profound change (for the better) and so won't be as it once was. The New Bradfield/Eton will emerge in time a far better school for the future ! And I do know when H's current headmaster joined , thank you, but unless you are waving a magic wand then changes implemented need time to evolve hence my comment coming after a few years. I'm sure you will see the same with The New Bradfield, I mean Eton!

But you’re wasting your breath telling me that Quiosegagne. I am not convinced Harrow is anywhere near Eton academically as you have me us believe. Like I said before, I only believe in hard facts and figures as I’ve proven with the above link.

Now, how about you proving to us your exaggerated Harrow claim for a change?

And why would I be “angry” that my DS’s old school is undergoing a “change” if ever there’s a change? Like said before, DS left 5 years ago and is well into another career which his old school had prepared him so very well for.

Just in case you’re not aware, Eton had 5 Head Masters in the last 50 years before Simon Henderson took over this year. These past Heads had been headmasters at Shrewsbury, Bradfield, Tonbridge, Abingdon, Geelong Grammar School (Australia), Chigwell and Oakham before they became Head Master of Eton. My point is, did Eton change beyond recognition in the last 50 years with these heads coming from all over the nation and across to Down Under?

So what made you think Eton would be made to look like ‘New Bradfield’ now that Simon Henderson is Head Master? If you really must know, the last Head Master of Eton who came from Bradfield was asked to leave in 1969 for disagreements with the School!

Good that you know when H’s current headmaster joined. Not so good that you don’t know 5 years down the line and still nothing to show for it. No need to wave a magic wand, but 5 years on in a career with an average life span of appx. 10 years is long enough to see any changes being implemented bearing fruits. A new Presidential term in the USA last only 4 years! If you don’t perform, you’re kicked out!

A complete set of new cohorts who started fresh in H together with Jim Hawkins would have come and gone after 5 years with nothing to show for. There must be many very disappointed parents after paying all that money . . .

Peteneras Chuckle, chuckle... You do seem to have taken Eton's new direction rather personally! I think you need to take a deep breath and calm down dear, it's only a school!!! Your consistent rants against anyone who suggests Eton is not the be-all and end-all ,despite people, including myself, who have acknowledged the schools' quality, just makes for great amusement by all on the site. Just because many people , such as my family, viewed Eton amongst others and put it second on our wish list behind Harrow does not make it anything less than an excellent school - it's just that other top schools have, like fine wine, improved with age, whilst some might say the recipe at Eton is being changed and that change in substance may not be quite so appealing to some. Mr Henderson will prove an inspired choice and whilst many of the OE purists may not like to see change , this will help the school greatly in the future. I can only assume you are not on the board of Governors who approached Mr Henderson with the position. Listening to school gossip , yes I have many family friends still there, whilst co-ed is unlikely - the bookies' favourite is the demise of the tailcoat for day to day use. Surely this isn't getting you hot under the collar!! Perhaps a school blazer and woolly jumper is just around the corner?

it is only a school very true for E and other schools.
E may not be responsible for DC's poor judgement (compounded by lack of contigency plans for Brexit) but that also suggests that E education like all must have its limits. I am sure that whatever career P's DS is doing there are many non-Etonians doing just as if not more successfully and as well prepared by their education.
(E is a great school by the way )

Well said there, Sendsummer, though I fear your preposterous suggestion that E has limits!! May incur the wrath of everyone's favourite E groupie......snigger..(Grin)

Of course Harrow isn't near Eton academically but Harrow isn't too bad.

My view is boarding schools damage many (bot not all) children so why take the risk and an academic day private school is usually a better option.

Luckily we live in a UK where parents can choose home schooling, state and private schools. We all differ in what we are after.

I hope we can all get beyond the division of the nation and indeed families arising from the foolish referendum and just make the best of it.

Dogcatred Ermm... Not sure I agree with you there?? I'm sure you have visited both schools and looked at their results to state that!

I have often been to Harrow but not Eton. I am not sure if Eton still publishes results but I would be very surprised if Harrow were beating Eton. Harrow does not even beat my chidlren's day schools for exam results. Aren't we talking about Harrow last year 67% A/A and Eton 79% and schools like my daughter's 87% A/A this year? May be Harrow is up this year but I doubt it would have bridged that kind of gap. That doesn't mean it's not a good school of course and it takes boys who are less bright so it's not fair to compare it to Eton and some of the academic day schools anyway.