There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

[HelenMumsnet]

Hello. You may have seen/heard on the news today that Ofsted is warning that thousands of bright secondary-school-age children are being "systematically failed" at school.

And we'd like to know what you think about this.

Ofsted says there is a culture of low expectations in England's non-selective secondaries - meaning that, according to a new Ofsted report, more than a quarter (27%) of pupils who achieved the highest results in primary school fail to achieve at least a B grade in both their English and their Maths GCSE.

The most academically able, says Ofsted chief inspector Sir Michael Wilshaw, arrive "bright-eyed and bushy-tailed" from primary school, but things start "to go wrong very early. They tread water. They mark time. They do stuff they've already done in primary school. They find work too easy and they are not being sufficiently challenged."

Do you think this is a fair reflection of life at secondary school? Do you think your child's secondary school has a low expectation of its pupils/your child? Does/did your child "tread water" in Year 7? Do you wish secondary schools did more to challenge their more academically able pupils?

Please do tell!

In a episode of The Big Bang Theory the gang noticed that Harold would take any conversation and steer it towards the fact that he had been up in space.

Well, I'm getting the same feeling about Xenia and how women should aim at earning loads. For the time being I am deeming it to be 'funny'.

So most people on the thread tend to disagree with the report. I think most schools do try to stretch all pupils these days. I do think that low level disruption makes this hard sometimes though, and there can be apathy amongst many pupils, even though good qualifications have never been more important.

It will be interesting to see how reports like this one change when national curriculum levels are dropped. At least, at the moment, secondary schools have some kind if measure, albeit sometimes unreliable, of a child's previous attainment. If a child comes to my school with L2 in KS2 (unusual but not unheard of) then their GCSE targets are Ds. Once the NC levels are gone, will it be assumed that all are capable of "top" grades, or will secondary schools have to waste time on baseline testing in Yr 7?

Sprinkle - The fact that not all secondary schools have low aspirations does not by default mean that most schools try to stretch their children.

The MNetters posting to this thread aren't necessarily a representative sample of the population. I mean, if you was an apathetic teacher then would you be spending your free time on a forum discussing education issues? Of course you wouldn't. So the anecdotes from the teachers about how their charges are challenged and motivated should not be taken as typical of secondary schools.

It's a bit like having a forum about second holiday homes and concluding that most of MNetters are rich based on that forum.

I suppose I am saying that compared to maybe 30 years ago, schools are more accountable for the progress of each and every pupil. As a result, more schools attempt to challenge pupils.

Habba - I find that quite insulting. The vast majority if my colleagues are committed to doing their absolute best for our students and those who don't pull their weight are being dealt with by SLT. I don't imagine they all waste their time on MN, though... To conclude that the teachers on these threads are not typical of secondary school teachers is quite an assertion!

you know this thing about mixed ability v streaming?
if they get Level 5 in mixed ability primary class Y6, how comes mixed ability Y7+ stops them getting top grades?

I suspect my colleagues work harder than me, most teachers on MN work harder than me. In fact if I posted less on here I would get more done. So perhaps MN is the home of lazy procrastinating teachers. ( that is aimed at me, not anyone else)

Mumzy wrote
How I'd improve comps:Everyone attends the same school, have proper streaming for academic subjects. Smaller classes (20 pupils) for lower ability. Technical subjects to be taught ,such as catering, plumbing, car mechanics, construction, hairdressing ( there will always be demand for good hairdressers), as well as academic ones.

Whoops. Comps already do all that .....

And why the bias against big schools?
Eton has 1300 pupils and it does not seem to cause a problem.

In a big school -over 1500 - there are economies of scale : pastoral support, facilities, numbers of specialised teachers
AND when the children are split into sets the ability bands within each set are narrower so children get taught at a rate appropriate for them.

Talkinpeace, your DH may well see over a 100 comps a year but I'm sure he doesn't get to spend much time in them. It took me 6 weeks of full-time working at our local 'highly regarded' comp to see what it was really like - needless to say, none of my children will be going there.

On one occasion when the whole of Y11 were assembled just prior to an exam there was a palpable 'tension' in the air with all the big male teachers drafted in like bouncers, 'afraid' to say anything to the equally big Y11's who were knocking back their 2 litre bottles of coke. I'm not sure what this says about the school and the state of education today BUT it definitely says something.

Mumzy
"How I'd improve comps:Everyone attends the same school, have proper streaming for academic subjects. Smaller classes (20 pupils) for lower ability. Technical subjects to be taught ,such as catering, plumbing, car mechanics, construction, hairdressing ( there will always be demand for good hairdressers), as well as academic ones."

What about those that don't want to do catering, plumbing, car mechanics, construction, hairdressing?

If they didn't want to study those subjects they would not choose them. IME when a child chooses a vocational subject it is precisely because it is something they want to do.

pickledsiblings
interestingly because he goes to so many schools - and because he's not an inspector they are not putting on a 'front' for him - he sees things like that a LOT.
He was at a school that had just been praised in the national press and it took him literally minutes to realise it was a disaster waiting to happen : the odure interacted with the ventilation device only a few weeks later.
There is an 'energy' in schools ..... Inspectors are unlikely to ever see it because of who they are.

Catering has to be the worst industry in the world, ok if you are a student needing money to see you though. If you are not the next jamie oliver it has to be the worst career ever. Has anyone seen the report in the Sunday Times this morning about poor white kids with the worst achievement. P.S "NEVER ADVISE ANY KID IN TO CATERING"

You've clearly never worked in an abattoir...or in farming beatback. I think people can be awfully judgemental when it comes to 'applied' careers - you know, ones where you have to use your hands. I've never understood this. These implicit and explicit messages given to children about applied professions lead to pupils disregarding what could actually be very appropriate career choices for some.

Arisbottle

I would say that most choose a vocational subject because they want to but some do not.

In mumzy's senario I suspect that non academic pupils will be forced to take vocational subjects.

talkinpeace, saying that schools have an 'energy' is a kind way of putting it. I am not a delicate flower by any means and I have felt frightened by that energy a number of times. It is like something is simmering just under the surface about to erupt. The Head of the school that I am talking about is supposed to be 'inspirational' and he really knows how to talk the talk but there is such huge resentment for him at the school by pupils other than those in the top sets.

This school is in Suffolk which is struggling by comparison with other counties. It has its fair share of dedicated excellent teachers and any number of fabulous extra curricular things going on. What it doesn't have is a rigorous system for dealing with poor discipline.

Ah but some have a really good energy
there is one that DH has been to a few times in the midlands and he just loves it - the buzz in the corridors of happy engaged kids is phenomenal

but yes, I wish Ofsted stopped worrying about the shape of hedges and REALLY got their teeth into bullying, class control, teacher CPD and mentoring as THAT would help the weaker schools get stronger

Lebfg. My background is Catering,and all my family and extended family are either in Catering or nursing so i am quite aware about vocational careers. If you want to work Christmas Day Boxing Day New Years Eve for below average pay even if management then catering is for you if you do not want to then stay away from Catering.

lebfg / beatback
One of my clients digs holes. That is his skill. He can barely read or write but he loves digging - in the rain, in sewage, he does not care.
And because he's good - working around pipes and weird stuff
he makes best part of £30k a year
digging holes
he has not got a single paper qualification except his driving licence

BUT
He's making his kids be good enough at maths and reading that they have more options ....

I was so saddened and shocked when I was teaching year 4 children and was chatting to one of the 9 year-old girls in the class. She was talking about what she wanted to do after leaving school and how her sister worked in a travel agent's and got good deals on holidays. I said something like "You never know, when you are older you might decide you'd like to go to university." (She was a bright child). She looked at me absolutely horrified and said "I'm not going there miss; that's for them posh people!"

Talkinpeace. I would never denigrate someone digging holes or building roads because some of my friends familys made "MILLIONS OF POUNDS" building roads or sewage works though they made sure their kids went to good Schools and Universities. Coming over from Ireland in the 60s they built up fantastic business,and some of them are now among some of the "RICHEST" people in the country. My best friend who im not going to name is one of the best "BUSINESS WOMAN" in the north west 15 years ago she was living in a caravan now she gives lectures and talks all over the country and is always winning awards her bussiness is based on using your hands her business turns over 10 million a year and employs 100 people which is a fantastic achievement from a caravan in 15 years so i would never denigrate anyone using their hands for labour.

After I got a PhD I had a job that involved a huge amount of lugging heavy equipment, driving and digging (physical geography).

It's true in our family.. Our elder two dc were well taught at primary level and then revised that same work in yr 7 while everyone else from the other feeder schools caught up and generally expectations re handwriting, homework ( the odd poster or similar ) and work in general were very very low. The teachers were always pleased with them , as they were more worried about the lower achieving dc in the school. Meanwhile dc became very bored and were quite happy to see themselves at the same level as their friends.. Ie did not by this point even want to stand out as clever.

Went to state sixth form college and excelled there in the end , but not after a few resist of GCSE and AS .

Sorry, not until after a fair few resits of GCSE and AS that should read