There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

[HelenMumsnet]

Hello. You may have seen/heard on the news today that Ofsted is warning that thousands of bright secondary-school-age children are being "systematically failed" at school.

And we'd like to know what you think about this.

Ofsted says there is a culture of low expectations in England's non-selective secondaries - meaning that, according to a new Ofsted report, more than a quarter (27%) of pupils who achieved the highest results in primary school fail to achieve at least a B grade in both their English and their Maths GCSE.

The most academically able, says Ofsted chief inspector Sir Michael Wilshaw, arrive "bright-eyed and bushy-tailed" from primary school, but things start "to go wrong very early. They tread water. They mark time. They do stuff they've already done in primary school. They find work too easy and they are not being sufficiently challenged."

Do you think this is a fair reflection of life at secondary school? Do you think your child's secondary school has a low expectation of its pupils/your child? Does/did your child "tread water" in Year 7? Do you wish secondary schools did more to challenge their more academically able pupils?

Please do tell!

Oh well if we're now going on what our children reckon....

DS - at a non-selective - currently has pretty much the same NC levels (and slightly higher targets, as every child is pushed to achieve as highly as they can - being non-selective, they have to have lots of children OVER-achieve to get good final grades) as friends who go to localish selectives and had similar Year 6 SATS (5s / 6s)

A school will be in special measures if a teacher stands in front of a class and lectures and occasionally hands out homework???

Upthread I made the point but it's worth mentioning again.

Whenever some parent complains about their school the usual suspects turn up to post about how great their school is. I don't live in your catchment so in what way does your great school invalidate my complaint about mine?

The trouble with parents is that we only really get to experience the schools our children attend.
The trouble with teachers is that they only really experience the schools they work at and those their children attend.
The trouble with Inspectors is that even three hours' notice ensures they never, ever see schools as they normally are.
The trouble with politicians is that they walk around schools with such blinkered assumptions that it would be better if they had not disrupted lessons for the day and stayed away.

Which brings me round to DH and his ilk.
They go into schools for a day, are part of the curriculum, are welcomed by the pupils, staff and governors.
And as a result get a much more realistic view of how many, many types of schools actually work on a day to day basis than any other group of people I'm aware of.
He is not unique, and interestingly when he has a natter with the others in his field, they all share similar conclusions, regardless of their start point.

Gove is the organ grinder, but with an axe to grind.
Wilshaw is the monkey, many of whose pronouncements are not backed up by the research.
Neither of them is willing to let data get in the way of policy.
Neither of them is willing to let the dust settle enough to see how things actually are.

Yes, Habba, a teacher who stands and lectures a class would be judged inadequate in an observation. A whole school of teachers who do that = a while school of inadequate teachers = special measures.

Agrees utterly with EvilTwins : the point of a lesson is to educate - from the Latin to Lead out - and "child centred learning" means teachers are clobbered if they do not make sure the class has understood what they are wiffling on about. Good thing too.

A good lesson will facilitate learning. The fact that you claim this school teaches in the way you say Habba proves that you don't know what you're talking about.

I have a son at a selective and he is in some subjects way ahead of his peers , he was way ahead of his peers when he was not at a selective. I suspect he would have achieved the same results wherever he went .

I know it has recently changed but if your child left primary school with a level 5 in the days when that was the highest they could achieve,that level 5 represented quite a wide range of ability from those who were actually a level 4 but had been coached to within an inch of their lives ( or over helped by a TA) to those working far in excess of a level 5.

I sometimes have ex grammar school students join my A level classes, usually they are not the top grammar students but by definition they should be towards the top of our comp/ secondary modern, this is not always the case. They do come to us brimming with the appearance of confidence though which will get them so far.

Talkinpeace I am sure that your husband has a good insight into schools but he must recognise that as an outsider he will see a school putting on its best show, unless he jumps unexpectedly out of cupboards. It is quite natural to up your game a bit when a guest comes in.

Yes teachers shouldn't just stand at the front and lecture and then hand out homework that is rarely marked, but it does happen. Even in outstanding schools you will find members of staff who get away with this. At my son's grammar school there is a lot of lecturing and then hand out homework - although it is marked!

Aris, no, that is my exact point.
He delivers curriculum, so he gets PE teachers having hissy fits at him because they are not into his subject.
The rest of the school whirls along around what he does : think big scale peripatetic music teacher. And he is one of many in the country.
So what they see is how the school really is, and they get to compare counties and sectors and ages and specialisms ....

The thing with a grammar school is that a lot of the hard work has already been removed from the "child centred learning" as the difficult kids have been sent to another school .... hence your own point about over confidence

So is your husband in classrooms?

Does child centred learning only involve less able pupils,because i would have thought it would involve all across the abilty range and therefore still be very relevant within a Grammar School. Surely child centred learning is about enjoying as well as learning, regardless of school or academic expectations.

I agree beatback, but from talking to my son, to many of his teachers, to many ex grammar teachers and from observing in our local grammars, there is a lot of open your text book and answer questions 1-10 type lessons and the homework is usually answer questions 11-20.

I don't think that schools are able to get away with that style of teaching any more. A school local to me, where 2 friends teach, was recently downgraded from Outstanding to Requires Improvement. It is a non-selective state school but has a good reputation in the area and therefore attracts a lot of middle class parents. It is also the kind of school where teachers stay put- there are very few behaviour issues and because it's over-subscribed, it can use exclusion as leverage more than an emptier school can. The biggest criticism from ofsted, and one if the main reasons it was down graded was Teaching & Learning. Too much "chalk & talk", too much teacher talk, not enough independent learning. Google the current ofsted framework- the "old school" style of teaching favoured in some selevt

Oops... Some selectives/independents is a one-way ticket to inadequate. Obviously in independent schools, that doesn't matter as they're not slaves to ofsted.

I agree Evil that kind of teaching is not wanted by OFSTED, our school has worked hard to reduce teacher talk. In my experience teachers are often quite big characters who can naturally dominate a room and allowing others to take centre stage does not come naturally to us.

Our school was Ofsteded earlier in the year and we were told that our students were too compliant and well behaved!

Sorry pressed too soon, I suspect our school is very similar to the one that evil says was downgraded to needs improvement and the issues may be similar.

Some of the most inspiring teachers - in my case Dr Wood who taught me for two years and made me want to do a degree in the subject - are those who say
"I don't know, lets find out"

the most irritating teachers are those who think they know it all.

Nobody does, life is a learning process. I'm damned good at what I do but I'm constantly trying to get new ideas and develop so that I can be better.

I met someone else today whose son got into a Russell Group university on his BTEC. Apparently they prefer it for environmental science.

This is relevant because BTEC L3 isn't often taught in selectives and BTECs are actually very challenging yet they are seen as second best and would have some parents worrying and thinking their child wasn't being pushed enough.

One up for the non-selective, underachievers.

Not my experience at all
20 children (more than 1 in 6) got 10A*s or better at GCSE

Coming back here from the US where all my children's peers wanted to belong to the straight A and Honour Roll, to the kids here who laugh at the serious students and make fun of them, calling them posh and boffin!
The mind set here is totally different and is a daily uphill struggle to maintain high standards. A few good teachers, the rest are distinctly average in our local supposedly "good" school. I am so thankful that both my kids had the majority of their schooling done in America, which gave them a great work ethic and a burning passion to be the best they can be.

Do all children laugh at the serious students and call them a boffin or some? Do all children lack aspiration or just some?

IME it is the latter for both.

Certainly IME it is some - and depending on the ethos of the school, may be very few indeed, especially as 'like minded students' tend to congregate together and this may be less susceptible to the views of others.

none of my DCs gangs of friends laugh at them for being bright and hardworking
then again most of DDs friends just collected their prefect ties so they clearly have low expectations