There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

[HelenMumsnet]

Hello. You may have seen/heard on the news today that Ofsted is warning that thousands of bright secondary-school-age children are being "systematically failed" at school.

And we'd like to know what you think about this.

Ofsted says there is a culture of low expectations in England's non-selective secondaries - meaning that, according to a new Ofsted report, more than a quarter (27%) of pupils who achieved the highest results in primary school fail to achieve at least a B grade in both their English and their Maths GCSE.

The most academically able, says Ofsted chief inspector Sir Michael Wilshaw, arrive "bright-eyed and bushy-tailed" from primary school, but things start "to go wrong very early. They tread water. They mark time. They do stuff they've already done in primary school. They find work too easy and they are not being sufficiently challenged."

Do you think this is a fair reflection of life at secondary school? Do you think your child's secondary school has a low expectation of its pupils/your child? Does/did your child "tread water" in Year 7? Do you wish secondary schools did more to challenge their more academically able pupils?

Please do tell!

Can I just say that I have not gone on to any kind of greatness? As i said bog standard teacher in bog standard school. Where have I said that I have several post grad degrees. I watch toomuch crap on TV and spend too much time on here to manage that.

Arisbottle. What do you say to your set 5 y10 to keep their sprits up. I presume these would be D/E kids what careers do your advise them to take up. Do you tell them it will be difficult for them or do you try to be positive with them.

Most of my set five students will go off to do apprenticeships and I say to them that as well as the fact that my subject is interesting this is their chance to show commitment and hard work , skills employers look for. There are a few in there who will get grade Cs and that will make a huge difference to their future post sixteen options and I make sure they know that.

Mainly I am just nice to them , students generally work hard if you are nice to them.

I teach in a grammar area. My school is not, in my view, a secondary modern. There are 5 grammars in a huge area and really, a very small proportion of children get in. The only co-ed grammar of the lot is hugely competitive and friends with DCs at independent preps and primaries happily admit that they will try for this school before continuing with private schooling.

I don't believe that the children I teach suffer from low expectations in school. Over half of my yr 11s have made at least 5 levels of progress in my subject. BUT very few of our 6th formers take up the university places they are offered. We encourage them to apply, they get offers, then get cold feet and don't go. The low expectations are coming from home, in these cases, not school. The "university is not for the likes of us" attitude. It makes me sad.

DD1's school streams - each year group has 8 classes, they are grouped by ability. DD is in the top one, which is a mix of L5 and L6 children. The most disruptive child in her class is off the scale bright in maths, hitting high L7s regularly. He is also a complete pain in the arse who hides other people's stuff, throws their pencils and pens on the floor, kicks them in the back when sitting behind them, pulls hair - you get the idea. There are several other children in the class who are also very bright but disruptive, high ability =|= good behaviour.

I have to say they do have high expectations of their top groups though, but then their intake is one of stark divides between very MC and very deprived.

BoffinMum is right in everything she says about the way school should be. In addition I am very unlikely to believe anything Gove and Wilshaw say, just because they are Gove and Wilshaw - evidence-free operators who use dodgy surveys to back up a point but ignore experts trained in education (these including teachers). I am also very unconvinced that Gove has anything but his future career at heart, plus of course handing the entire state education sector over to the private sector by stealth. A survey using a small sample of state schools is not evidence, and using SATs as the benchmark for failure is downright stupid as children are coached stupid for them.

Do you feel more attached to them than to say kids in set1 or 2 because for the most part they are doing their best . When you say apprenticeships do you mean work placement on Further Education College Courses or full time Apprenticeships. Do you found it difficult to get business to take 16 yr olds on.

We have businesses phoning us to offer us placements, the school has a good reputation locally, particularly for turning out well behaved and hard working young people , so we are often their first port of call.

My set 5 is quite small, about 12 students so it is easy to get attached to them that maybe you don't with set one. But students in set one work very hard too.

Eviltwins. It is very sad that your kids only see the negative and not the positive within University Education. they probably focus on the cost ra ther than what it can do for them not just in Education but in terms of delveoping them as people,are they aware that the way, paying back the fees work although expensive it should not be prohibitive.

rather and developing typos SORRY.

Arisbottle I agree, most of DS2s friends are lower set or have problems at school, they've all been dismissed by the school as 'no marks', but they've all stayed here many times and they're really lovely decent kids.

I applaud you for taking time to encourage yours, our school can't be arsed, its heartbreaking.

Crikey, this is not at all what ds (now in Year 9) has experienced.

He attended a good primary school, but was left to coast in middle sets when he was capable of more.

He then went to our local, huge, state comp. At this school children are continually assessed during Year 7 and then at the end of Year 7 he was streamed into set 1s and 2s (where 1 is top and 6 is bottom)

He is now coming to the end of Year 9 and so far has found his secondary school interesting and challenging, is really enjoying it and doing well.

It's very sad. I blame the media (cliche) but honestly, it pisses me off. The excitement in their faces when they get offers from the universities they want to go to is great. Then something happens, and they decide they can't go. One boy is predicted A grades in his A Levels, wants ultimately to join the police force, has a place at university to study Forensic Science. Is going to work in Argos. Another, fantastic student- House Captain, fabulous with mentoring younger students, plays football to county level. Has offers from universities to study Business Management. Has accepted a job at junior level in a local insurance company. I could go on...

It has to be family pressure that talks them out of going to University. If family members keep saying "I NEVER WENT TO UNIVERSITY AND IT DID ME NO HARM" or "HOW ARE YOU GOING TO LIVE WITHOUT A FULL TIME JOB" "DO YOU THINK YOU WILL WALK STRAIGHT IN TO A JOB". These are just a few things they probably hear from friends and family a like.

and fear of enormous debt beatback

I think the high fees are a deterrent. For my part, I don't trust this government, or any future government, not to 1) raise fees further, or 2) change the repayment terms. In fact this has already been mooted - one of the things this government said when raising fees was 'but we'll also raise the earnings threshold for repayment'. Now they're talking about bringing it back down again. Is it any wonder young people don't want to take the risk?

I'm going to encourage my DDs to study abroad - there are many very well regarded universities in countries where fees are much lower and where the courses are taught in English.

I didn't go to university - as I have said upthread I wasn't regarded as university material. I desperately want our dC to go though and they have been told they should go from birth.

Jellkat. Yes it is a big debt but affordable. The way kids have got to think of at as a Insurance Policy that they will only start paying for when they can. Or a extra form of N.I, if they can forget the actual amount owed and think is it worth £15-£20 a week maximum pay back . They could see a reason to go.

Arisbottle - I was referring to people in 'threads like this' as opposed to you specifically.

Sorry, I was confused , maybe because I don't have several postgraduate qualifications.

I am not sure there is such a thing as over qualified for teaching though , although there are other professions which tend to be better qualified.

To answer your point we bank on about it because I know that most people from my background don't get to go to university, especially not a top one. I have had two work twice as hard as as most of the people around me to get to the same place.

Apologies if it sounded as if I was mocking people who overcame economic and social adversity. I was simply trying to make the point that we all have such anecdotes but this doesnt invalidate the comments of those who would criticize non selectives.

beatback i know, luckily DS1 completed uni the year before fees were raised, although we were shocked to discover interest started on his loans from the month he started the course.
We ignore it, but i can imagine most people would be put off by so much debt.

The other problem is once completed, paid internships are impossible to find, so unless the family can financially support post grad for a while, you're buggered in that direction too.

Eviltwins-of course the change their minds- as soon as the realisation of the amount of debt they will end up with sinks in....

marking space

We chose paid selective schools as I earn enough to pay fees.
Apparently state schools do SATs (most private schools do not and none of my children did them) and chilren are coached above their level so the SATs results may not be the best indicator so not surprising some of those coached at primary beyond an inch of their life so not do that well in GCSEs. It is a bit like coaching a child to get into a selective school at 11. If you coach (we didn't) then you might get in despite not really being able to keep up with the standard.

On university debt es they are talking about reducing the income level down to I think £18k form £23k earnings before you start to repay it. They change the rules all the time. I paid the fees of my children and that of course nowadays is a risk because if they never earn over those levels they would not have had to pay any back but I am still glad that I did and it shows why it is worth women having high paid careers rather than just following their dream to paint stones or whatever might float their boat. If you pick a sensible career as a woman you can ensure your children graduate debt free.