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Secondary education

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Original poster

Has anybody successfully tutored for the 11+ completely by themselves(need reassurance)

261 replies

Blueskiesandbuttercups · 27/05/2013 16:39

DS year 4 desperately wants to go but we can't afford tutoring.He is bright,driven and I was a teacher so in theory it shouldn't be too hard.

His friend is also going for it but they're well off so tutoring and have already started.Ds is nagging me to get started.

Sooo went on the 11+ forum typed in the school to order books and I'm already in a pickle.They cost £££££ so need to get it right. We like CPG but loads are listed we haven't heard off. Would it be ok to just go with Bond and CPG or should we go with exactly those listed?

Is it possible to do this ourselves or am I deluding myself? If I screw this up I'll feel like shit- forever! Need lots of reassurance.

OP posts:
seeker · 29/05/2013 07:40

It always amuses me when people say that the child passed the 11+ without tutoring, then go on to detail the tutoring they gave them!

HabbaDabba · 29/05/2013 07:49

Travelled - What you did with your DCs is 'tutoring' :)

Yellowtip · 29/05/2013 09:40

seeker 'tutoring' means a paid for 11+ tutor and not parental help. Parental help is not tutoring in the sense that that it's regarded as disadvantaging those who can't afford tutoring. It's ridiculous to try and make out that parental help is 'tutoring'.

My eldest four DC simply went to school and I bought the pack of four NFR papers as recommended in the prospectus by the grammar school. They therefore didn't get 'tutored' even under your misleading definition of tutoring.

The younger four went to a much weaker school and got a modest amount of help from the two retired teachers from the older ones' school. That is 'tutoring' but not without cause: DD4, for example, is taught by one teacher who teaches all subjects by herself in a school where Y3, Y4, Y5 and Y6 are all taught in one room and there are some seriously, seriously disruptive children who have absolutely no wish to learn or to let others learn.

I myself have done remarkably little with the DC beyond sending them to school regularly (almost no days off) and being clear that I'd like them to go to the grammar and think they're all capable.

gazzalw · 29/05/2013 09:49

It's a matter of semantics I would say - but I agree with you Yellowtip - there's a huge difference twixt going thro' past papers and explaining things that the DCs don't understand and sending them to a tutor who is actively teaching a lot more than that (one would hope...).

We certainly didn't have a rigid timetable and subjects that were actively taught to DS - he practised papers and we then went thro' them. We didn't even work on timings etc... because we were lucky that DS is naturally prone to be careless speedy.

Thisisaeuphemism · 29/05/2013 10:04

At least now I understand what people who say they didn't tutor their kids means. It means they researched papers, made their kids do maths tests, practised and practised (exactly as they would do at a 'tutors') oh but no money exchanged hands...

seeker · 29/05/2013 10:05

"It's a matter of semantics I would say - but I agree with you Yellowtip - there's a huge difference twixt going thro' past papers and explaining things that the DCs don't understand and sending them to a tutor who is actively teaching a lot more than that (one would hope...). "

What else is a tutor doing? A specific 11+ tutor, I mean?

HabbaDabba · 29/05/2013 10:07

Yellow - In the OP, Blue does make the distinction between tutoring and parental involvement. So, in the context of this thread, travelled was correct in saying that her DDs weren't tutored.

But speaking generally In other threads a lot of people do define 'tutoring' as prepping their kids for the 11+, whether it's done by the parent or by a paid tutor.

Marni23 · 29/05/2013 10:18

I don't think you can draw a clear distinction. There's a world of difference between, say, simply providing a few practice tests for your child to complete, and spending hours going over papers teaching the concepts the child hasn't grasped.

But then I'd say the same thing applies to paid for tutors. AFAIK some are 'classes' where the DC just complete paper after paper vs one to one sessions with the tutor concentrating on areas of weakness.

It reminds me of a parent at DC's school who was very vociferous in her condemnation of parents using tutors but then paid for a member of staff to do extra sessions with her DS. She seemed to think this didn't count, presumably because the teacher wasn't a 'tutor'!

MirandaWest · 29/05/2013 10:24

Tutoring is tutoring whether you pay someone for it or do it yourself. Although I would also say that familiarising your child with the format of the paper is necessary - they would be at a disadvantage if they didn't know about that.

Am glad we're not in a grammar school area though - is quite nice to know I don't have to make any choices about whether to apply or not.

Yellowtip · 29/05/2013 10:37

Well not in my case Thisisaeuphemism.

Marni I don't particularly regard the help given to my younger ones as 'tutoring' but I'm not too bothered if others do. I would never, ever have gone out into the market place to find a tutor I didn't know personally. As it happens the teaching the older four was getting was decidedly weak in main areas so this solution was good: no conflict with the school and a vague parity of education between my eight children.

It would be a crazy world to suggest that parents are causing social disadvantage by helping their children. The only tutoring which does that is intensive paid for tutoring from a tutor who is properly effective. Very clearly not all tutors are effective in securing a place, given how many DC I've known over the years who've been professionally tutored and failed. All the DC in DD4's class except one sat the 11+. DD4 passed in the top category (certain place) in spite of only oblique maternal help, one DC passed the second category (possibility of a place) but had no tutoring in either sense and all the others failed outright despite them all going to a paid for tutor over a long period of time.

Yellowtip · 29/05/2013 10:45

Miranda tutoring is not tutoring if parents help their children and that help is not the sort to create social disadvantage. Which is all that matters, in terms of equal access to grammars. Sure, children who have parents interested in their education are at an advantage but there's a very clear distinction between professional and parental tutoring. It would be very undesirable to encourage parents not to help their children.

seeker · 29/05/2013 10:54

Who is encouraging parents not to help their children?

However, it is disingenuous to pretend that all parents have an equal ability/inclination to help. You don't need professional tutors to perpetuate social disadvantage.

seeker · 29/05/2013 10:56

What is the difference between parental and professional tutoring, by the way?

Original poster
Blueskiesandbuttercups · 29/05/2013 11:03

Interesting point but where do children at private,Outstanding or Good primaries fit into this?

Surely those of us with kids in Satisfactory or under schools who tutor coud be described as "bridging the gap"as you're not starting off on a level playing field.

What I do know is that those parents in this situation have no choice,those in the above do.

OP posts:
seeker · 29/05/2013 11:09

I think 11+ tutoring is such a niche thing that generally the school the child comes from is less important than you would think. (Oh, and don't forget that "satisfactory" actually means "satisfactory", not rubbish!). Schools don't teach VR or NVR. A lot of the maths required isn't covered by the curriculum until well into year 6 in any state school. Possibly the extended writing task, if there is one, might be better from kids from significantly better schools.

FrauMoose · 29/05/2013 11:10

My daughter also wanted to take grammar school entrance. Having seen some of the negative effects of tutoring, I knew that I would not go down that road.

The school itself advised against tutoring and suggested that prospective entrants might want to look at some of the generic practice papers by way of preparation.

This is exactly what we did. It was up to my daughter if she did the practice papers or not. I didn't stand over her or mark her.

I also made it very clear that the other alternative schools we looked at - and applied for - this was at a time when you didn't take the selective exam in September - had good things about them, and that I believed whichever school she went to she would be happy, make friends and do well.

She gained a place at the grammar school.

Yellowtip · 29/05/2013 11:12

Of course parental input will vary seeker. Some parents are going to value education more than others and some won't be in a position to help. It was ever thus and one can't proselytize to parents who have no particular wish for their DC to go to a grammar - that's their call. For those parents who would like their DC to have a shot, the papers are freely available. To say that that's 'tutoring' is a nonsense.

seeker · 29/05/2013 11:14

So what is tutoring?

FrauMoose · 29/05/2013 11:19

I do value education. That is not the same as automatically valuing a selective school over the local alternative providers.

One of the things I most dislike about my daughter's school is that there are respects in which it is actually not an institution where this thing called 'education' is particularly well understood or valued. It is an exam factory and a conduit to Russell Group universities.

CecilyP · 29/05/2013 11:20

Miranda tutoring is not tutoring if parents help their children and that help is not the sort to create social disadvantage. Which is all that matters, in terms of equal access to grammars. Sure, children who have parents interested in their education are at an advantage but there's a very clear distinction between professional and parental tutoring. It would be very undesirable to encourage parents not to help their children.

I don't see how there can be a clear distinction between professional and parental tutoring. Surely some parents are just as good or even better than professional tutors. The fact that no money changed hands does not change that. Or are you saying that parents can't possibly be competant at tutoring for an exam which is, after all, taken by 10 year olds.

Yellowtip · 29/05/2013 11:23

I think a lot of people would argue about your interpretation of the 'Satisfactory' rating seeker.

None of my DC had to take a NVR test (which is the one most advantaged by tutoring), so only VR was in issue and that's just like a game tbh. And my understanding has always been that the whole of the Y6 maths curriculum was included so that all DC had a fair crack at the paper, regardless of the order in which the topics at their school were taught.

I have to say that I do find the intensity of some of the schedules for preparation described on MN wholly unnecessary and over the top. Surely a lot of the DC rebel?

Original poster
Blueskiesandbuttercups · 29/05/2013 11:26

Hmmm Satisfactory(for now) at our school means bottom quintile for everything in year 6, zero parental info on anything,discouragement from asking,not seeing children's work properly at parents evenings,zero consistency in every area,no info on how maths is taught(or anything else which makes supporting your child nigh on impossible),the less able being given the priority to get levels up,no info on progress,targets or levels unless you become the pita parent from hell,falling behaviour standards,staff leaving in high numbers......

I fail to see how a child in a school like that is on a level paying field with one privately educated or in a school that is Outstanding or Good and without any of the above issues.

OP posts:
Yellowtip · 29/05/2013 11:29

Cecily it depends if you're approaching the question as one of access or one of point scoring vis a vis other parents. I'm not particularly interested in the latter. Of course many, many parents will be better placed than 'professional' tutors to give guidance with the 11+. I'm quite sure that lots of 'professional' tutors are rubbish.

seeker · 29/05/2013 11:29

That's not "satisfactory"!

Yellowtip · 29/05/2013 11:31

But that is the sort of school rated as 'Satisfactory' seeker.

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