So we did not get DS1 into any of the Catholic Boys Secondaries, and the reason was the baptism criteria. This will also be the case for ds2

[PureQuintessence]

The schools did not take into account our explanations for not baptizing ds1 within the first 6 months. (Which was my dads stroke and helping mum coping and getting dad on his road to recovery was more important to me than a baptism at the time - we organized a blessing for ds1, one which is used for a child that will be baptized, so a stop gap thing sort of)

We are ok for schools for now, as ds1 has accepted an offer to an independent.

But what about ds2?

No matter how often we go to Church, and observe holy days of Obligation, he was also not baptized until it was convenient to get the family together, while visiting my home town. It will mean that there is no point even trying, as this is so important.

And do I even want to send my precious children to schools that have no empathy for people who struggle? I seriously thought we had heaps of compassionate grounds, and our priest said so in his reference, that there were compassionate reasons to accept our son. But no.

Maybe this thread should be in Aibu or Religion / Philosopy but it has made me really question our options and life choices, and whether spending 30 k a year for education for both boys is going to be worth it.

pure to get things back on track are you aware that the schools adjudicator have ruled Oratory's service criteria discriminatory? www.education.gov.uk/schoolsadjudicator/decisions/database/a00218628/ada2387and2389los They ruled that it was against the admissions code which states 1.9e proscribes criteria which ?give priority to children on the basis of any practical or financial support parents may give to the school or any associated organisation, including any religious authority?. It isn't legally binding and I do not know whether someone got another shot at admissions as a result of taking the matter to the adjudicator. However if Oratory respond it doesn't look as though you could start ironing the linen to get DS2 in (and before you start to pounce Russiansonaspree OP and I share this "irony" )

It sounds though as you could not invoke an implicit cultural / ethnic bias, rather than social bias, because the church is exempt from the equality discrimination, and can invoke canon law? but there certainly seems to be an issue here which is leading to an unintentional bias in the admissions process.

That's bonkers. Not only do you have to be regular churchgoers but they had to be baptised by 6 months? I had no idea church schools were so strict. I mean yes, obviously they want to discourage people getting their child baptaised just as you come to choose schools but 6 months seems very tight.

My understanding is that Catholic parents have an obligation to baptise their babies as soon after birth as possible, it certainly always used to be the case- but I know things have changed, and this may be one of thm. But it certainly used to be very unusual to have reached 6 months unbqptized.

Quint, you have been offered a faith school, albeit not a Catholic one. I don't know how far out its non-faith catchment stretches but as its oversubscribed I'm guessing you got one of the faith places. You would also have got StRR if you'd put it higher up your list (and probably still could if you go on its waiting list now.)

I have to say, if I was as concerned as you sound like you are that I couldn't afford two sets of school fees then I'd be looking a bit closer at those state schools. I'd concur with noUggscuse that being in a brand new school with no older children could be a great option in your position. Also, a train season ticket from Putney/Barnes to Twickenham would be less than £40/month. That is MASSIVELY cheaper than school fees!

I don't know if is will make you feel better Quint, but I regularly catch a bus that is full of boys from Gunnersbury school, and they are not a good advertisement for the ethos of discipline of the school! I observe all the kids from all of the Ealing Secondary schools when they are out so can make direct comparisons IYSWIM? A lot of the boys from Gunnersbury seem rowdy and aggressive and they are not all polite to bus drivers or passengers. Based on bus behaviour alone they are worse than some of the supposedly rough (by Ealing Standards) comps.

fillyjonk I don't think that many people in the rest of the country can have any idea of the strange world of admissions to certain popular faith schools in London. I can see from the church's point of view that they are trying to find criteria to distinguish between all the many Catholics who apply, and especially to make it hard to become a "strategic" Catholic, and they obviously seek to admit 100% on those criteria.

However the result is that those with the knowledge and resources jump through whatever hoops are raised whilst those who do not find themselves in OPs position. I do not think that invoking canon law is helpful when it is practise to baptise before six months in this country even for a family like mine who did it essentially to please the grandparents and great grandparents, whereas in other countries and cultures different practises prevail, and a family may have no idea that not baptising within six months could have any implications down the line if they find themselves moving to the UK. Faith selection is after all rare in the OECD (only the UK, Estonia, Ireland and Israel) so most families coming from Catholic countries have no experience or knowledge of faith selection.

Those with the resources tend to be white and middle class so the Catholic schools around here do very poorly on measures of social deprivation and ethnicity compared with neighbouring community schools. As I said upthread we could have played it strategically and exempted ourselves from experiencing the consequences of living in a borough where there was a shortage of place in good non faith schools (as in not OFSTED failing) and now a shortage of places altogether.

I find it all very bemusing because where I come from Catholic Schools are very inclusive of a largely immigrant community.

The banding used by CVMS is designed to ensure the intake matches the cohort applying, not the population as a whole. If the applicants are skewed towards high attainers the intake will be similarly skewed. KS2 results in Kensington and Chelsea are significantly better than the national average, although not be enough on its own to explain the CVMS intake. If low performers think they won't get in and therefore don't apply that would skew things further.

The bottom band at CVMS covers the bottom 25% of applicants. If those getting priority on faith grounds happen to be towards the top of the band (e.g. because those are the more motivated parents who attend church regularly to make sure their child gets in) that will again skew the intake.

I don't know if CVMS is fiddling the banding results. Without knowing a lot more about last year's applicants it is impossible to tell.

Are you in Ealing, Mavis? I'm guessing you never encounter any of the maraudering hordes from Acton High School, or the Gunnersbury boys wouldn't have entered your consciousness...

Fillyjonk75 - My understanding (as a non-Catholic) is that any practising Catholic would be aware of the fact they are supposed to get their child baptised within 6 months of birth. It is a requirement of the church, not just part of school admission criteria. CofE schools do not have a similar requirement.

I am

And I have only lived here a year, so only just getting to know the local reputations of the schools.

Well, Gunnersbury = (very) good. Acton High = (stupendously) bad.

Not that that's op's problem, of course.

Maybe they just let off a bit of steam on the bus then.
But if I caught DS behaving like that i would be most displeased! I think he will end up somewhere in the middle: Drayton Manor or Elthorne Park High school (Drayton is supposedly quite academic and ofsted !outstanding, but they come in as second worst in my observational behaviour study!)

Please excuse random !

prh47bridge The issue is that whilst it is custom in this country even for non practising Catholics who are pleasing the family, making sure the baby fits the traditional tiny family Christening gown etc it is not the custom in other countries, particularly Eastern European countries and that some of the schools seem to be more flexible about exemptions than others.

CVMS is well known for making the rules up as it goes along, even to the extent of fighting with it's own diocese about it's bending of criteria.

My next door neighbour's oldest son goes there, his younger brother didn't get in because of the new 6 month rule, they took it as far as the Ombudsman with no joy. Give up on CV - you have no chance!

Also the pastoral care in faith schools is not necessarily better, a friend of mine had to move her AS son from his 'christian' primary where he was bullied and got no support from staff to the community school my kids go to where he was happy and had no problems at all for the rest of time in primary.

However I confess I struggle to sympathise with those of you that don't get the faith school you want when lots of non denominational children get a lot less choice!

Dials My eldest is at Elthorne - sorry for going OT

Copthallresident - As Tiggytape points out, this is Catholic canon law. It is not something peculiar to the UK. A practising Catholic in any country should know that they are required to get their child baptised within weeks.

Is there any evidence that Catholics in Eastern European countries are ignoring canon law regarding baptism? Or is this just an assumption? Genuine question - I haven't been able to find any data one way or the other.

To be honest, I would have thought that Catholic parents in Eastern European countries were more likely to get children baptised quickly as they are, on the whole, more religious than the UK. But I may be completely wrong on that.

prh47bridge Only anecdotally, I do have some connections to the Polish community in Ealing and had heard of this as an issue, but not really one I tuned into TBH. I do remember attending baptisms of older children from Eastern Europe in the community I grew up in, but obviously didn't know the circumstances. There have been other posts from people in similar positions on other threads about schools admissions arrangements. Since OP is applying for a school that serves that community in Ealing, and the diocese are open about the need for that school to serve the needs of that community then clearly it might be useful to investigate under what circumstances they relax the requirement. Certainly locally here we have two Catholic Primary Schools one of which serves a Parish whose priest who will not relax the baptism criteria but will give references following two years of church going whilst in a neighbouring Parish the priest will not provide a reference unless parents have a more solid record of churchgoing throughout their lives unless there is evidence of deprivation or they are from a Catholic country (and for them he is willing to recommend relaxation of the baptism criteria)

I honestly dont know what to think.

I feel that my belief that a Catholic school was the best option for our boys. But it just seems to be hard and strict and lacking in empathy, which is understandable given the need to seek out the most Catholic of Catholics. I guess following canon law in every aspects of life is a good benchmark.

DH is the Catholic. I am brought up Christian. My dad is favoring Chinese philosophy, my mum follows the teachings of Lars Levi Lestadius, a Swedish reformation preacher who has a large following in North Scandinavia, and has mixed deeply with Sami belief. My sister converted to Catholicism when she was 18. My paternal grandma was of a more Pentecostal flavour. I learnt to never really question why people think what they do, and just read the Bible and make up my own mind.

If my dh had told me when ds1 was born that we had to hurry up and baptize him according to Catholic Canon law, when my dad was still in hospital and a wreck of his former self, and my mum in pieces, I think I would have lost it!

Well, we will just see what the waiting list situation will be like!

The most important thing to a child is aware, loving, involved and supportive parents. The school is secondary to that. And it sounds as if your children have that in spades. So I would just go for the most convenient school - and possibly review the situation after the first year.

I am from an Eastern European country (not Poland though). Why we do not baptize children early? It is hard to say, but looking at the history we suffered from Soviet occupation and faith was prohibited. You could not freely admit that you are religious, or you could suffer consequences. So we were deprived of religious customs for a long time and had recreate them after Soviet Union collapsed.

Baptism age is never mentioned or rushed by priests in my country. I wasn't aware of the early baptism clause until I have settled in the UK and became aware of this school admission thing. (admittedly I have never fully read the bible).

Another reason may be that we have a long cold season (autumn/winter) with like -10 or -20 degrees of Celsius and no one wants to "torture" a tiny baby in a cold church.. (and churches are not so well heated as in the UK!) so we rather wait for summer, warm weather, family gathering etc.

Basically, I screwed my DS1's future because I did not know of the early baptism requirement even though I was attending the church. DS1 was baptized when he was 17 months - that was the best timing for many reasons. Had I known, I would have been first in a line to baptize. In a way it is funny - I know few British/Irish parents who rushed to baptize their children at 3 months and never went to church until their child was around 3yo.